Book 4 - Page 3 - Prologue 3

Dolla dolla make you holla

Book 4 - Page 3 - Prologue 3
Comic - Book 4 - Page 3 - Prologue 3

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Turnomancy, duty, and loyalty are all mind control.
If you accept that, then "mind control" is so broad that every unit ever in Erfworld is mind-controlled/brainwashed. Everyone's popped with loyalty and duty.

Which then makes the accusation that Wanda is brainwashing her decrypted clearly true, but also inconsequential - if everyone's already mind-controlled, how is changing their loyalty target anything other than morally neutral?
Nightseraph wrote:
Turnomancy, duty, and loyalty are all mind control.

In that case, the discussion circles back to the original point: why, then, would decrypted be anything less than what they were before being decrypted?
500 posts, one reaction thread. Is that a record?

Edit: nope. This is the fifth thread to hit 500 replies, the record is 627 for book 2 p 110.
Pete wrote:
500 posts, one reaction thread. Is that a record?

Edit: nope. This is the fifth thread to hit 500 replies, the record is 627 for book 2 p 110.

Back then thought he updates were a lot slower. 500 posts in 3 days is quite impressive.
Sir Dr D wrote:
Pete wrote:
500 posts, one reaction thread. Is that a record?

Edit: nope. This is the fifth thread to hit 500 replies, the record is 627 for book 2 p 110.

Back then thought he updates were a lot slower. 500 posts in 3 days is quite impressive.

It's true. Is this the quickest we've hit 500? I have no idea how to check that kind of stuff myself.
tomaO2 wrote:
She's kind of had the crap beaten out of her by the trial point. She had been working for Olive, a woman with absolute disdain for Wanda and her magic. When they first met. Wanda was shown to be hurt by Olive's attitude and argued. The fact that Wanda didn't show any emotion for being forced to answer for her croakamancy because she had to deal with this talk for almost her ENTIRE LIFE up until that point? How long was she alive before she was captured? Less then a month. Ever since then, she was forced to work for that horrible woman.

I'm about to say something I'll probably regret, especially in light of the sexism discussion throughout this thread, but I think Wanda effectively is suffering from abused spouse syndrome, with her spouse being Fate. Fate has beaten the crap out of Wanda, but Wanda is still loyal to Fate and tries to find "the easy way" to get Fate what it wants and avoid additional abuse.

tomaO2 wrote:
There are plenty of other points though that show what I am saying. PLENTY.

-She has said that her only interest was croakamancy, even though she knew several other types of magic.

When she served Haffaton, she said, "As I said, I am what I am needed to be. Even a warlord." She may only be interested in Croakamancy, but she's willing to be a Turnamancer, Dollamancer or Findamancer as Fate decrees. While Croakamancy may be her only interest, that doesn't mean she feels a need to show its superiority.

tomaO2 wrote:
-She was hurt when her father dismissed her craft.

She was only a few turns old and her father was dismissing an intrinsic part of herself and refusing to acknowledge her as his daughter. I think her being hurt was understandable.

tomaO2 wrote:
-She decided to have Cruz talk with her Mother, Bea, even though Parson said it was a bad idea. It was also stated that Wanda adopted EVERY idea Parson gave. Yet, here, an exception. The reason, I think, is because she wanted Bea to accept that Cruz was her daugher. I personally think that this failure is the reason she started wanting to be called Commander instead of Mistress. I think she realized that the slavish devotion that Ansom and Cruz lavished her with was one of the reasons Bea felt that they were just her puppets.
-She has no value for life. None. Wanda does NOT take prisoners. She croaks entire cities and decrypts them.
-When Jack asked her about Faq, she said she missed very little of that place. She is the reason that the side was destroyed. I don't recall her EVER showing guilt about that little fact.
-When they captured Ossomer, she immediately croaked him. She said it was for information, but she didn't need to do it like that.
-The way she talked about Maggie, and Jack, when they were incapacitated. How can you tell me that Wanda values life when her first solution to an ally being wounded is, "decrypt them". I hated her so damn much when she said that.

These all basically all come down to the same thing. She's trying to advance Fate's plans. She removes any obstacles in Fate's way. She takes units that stand in Fate's way and transforms them into units that advance Fate's plans. With Jack, she wanted to Decrypt him so that he could tell Parson all he knew about Charlie. With Maggie, in Wanda's mind, she had just tried to disrupt Fate, and Wanda wanted her Decrypted so that she could never do so again.

Also, Wanda doesn't even believe the crap she tells her troops. With Ansom, she tells him that the Titan's want the world ruled by Tools. With Jillian, she says that the Arkentools are Fated to be brought together and says that she herself is only an insignificant piece of the grand plan. That doesn't strike me as the hubris of someone trying to prove their own superiority and that of their craft. She's seeking the easy way and saying and doing what she thinks will lead to it.

tomaO2 wrote:
All she wants is to decrypt the world. To do that you have to kill them. She talks about the bodies. She is only interested in the bodies, because one of the only joys in her life is bringing back the dead. Jillian is literally the ONLY person Wanda has seemed to actually care about keeping alive (and Stanley, but if he croaks, the side dies), since book 1 started, and even that is no longer the case. She is a sick, disturbed woman. I hate her and I wish she wasn't so damn important to GK because I want her dead so bad.

I think your last sentence is what this comes down to. You hate Wanda, therefore you are biased against her and view her actions in the worst possible light. There's nothing wrong with that. Wanda's my favorite character, so I'm obviously biased in favor of her. I don't really know what Wanda wants. I disagree that she wants to Decrypt the whole world. She might want that, but I don't know. Trying to figure her out is one of the things I like about her so much.

I disagree that Jillian is the only one Wanda cares about. She cares about Parson, if only because he's an instrument of Fate. She cares about Marie, if only because she views her as Fate's herald. The only time I've interpreted her getting really excited about bodies is with the Archons. After the Battle of Spacerock, she wanted Parson to get her more. When Lilith went rogue and Gobwin Knob was on the verge of losing cities, she interrupted Parson's conversation with Lilith to ask for the bodies. Even in this update, we don't know if it was all the bodies or just the Archons she really wanted. Maybe she just really enjoys being able to see through them. Maybe they have a bit of a Flower taste to them. I don't know.

I do think Wanda is obsessively greedy. She is very possessive, both of Jillian and her Decrypted. Given what she's lost, I think that at least a little understandable. Still, with everything we know, I can't confidently say what Wanda's true motivations or goals are. The closest I can come up with comes from a conversation with Jillian where Jillian said, "I don‘t want to know how it ends." Wanda responded, "I do. Almost as desperately as I want it to end." Wanda wants to reach the end of her journey. If that means the end of the world too, she's probably fine with it, but I don't think it's something she's necessarily pursuing.

Anyway, this might be an agree to disagree situation. You hate her and have your mind made up about her intentions. I like her and eagerly await more pieces of the Wanda puzzle before making any drawing any definitive conclusions.

tomaO2 wrote:
Unknown, but it's certainly possible. Just because there are characters who haven't been called by a title, doesn't mean they don't have one.

I personally just assume that royal sides always pop noble warlords/commanders. Alternatively, noble sides may be able to pick either one but if you pick a noble, it increases the time for the unit to pop. If a normal warlord is popped in two turns, some might not think a few minor bonuses is worth the extra turn it would add to the total production time.

The actual title would be determined by the city level. So a low rank pops a viscount like Caesar, while a level 5 pops a duke.

EDIT: For clarity, calling someone a lord does not make them noble. Calling someone lord seems to be the standard form of address when talking to a commander type unit.

I generally agree with this. Commander units popped in cities other than the capital of a Royal side are Nobles, thus all casters of Royal sides should be Nobles. I don't know why none of Jetstone's casters have noble titles or why Bunny does but not Benny or Bill. I can certainly understand Sizemore not using his title, though, given Stanley's view on Royalism. I also agree that lord or lady is a generic title for non-Noble commanders. Wanda was a lady even though her father was only an Overlord.

We don't know how titles work, though. Forecastle was a duke, even though the city he popped in was probably the lowest level city Seaworld possessed.

elecampane wrote:
ArkenSaw wrote:
Ansan Gotti wrote:
I think this would be the very best way to cause Bill's undoing.

<Maggie takes over the doll>

"My name is Talky Maggie... and I don't like you."

"My name is Talky Maggie... and I think I could even hate you."

"My name is Talky Maggie... and I'm going to kill you!"

Just imagine how confused everyone would be to find Bill in his workshop with blood all over the doll's hands! Since they probably don't know what Bill did with this doll, they might suddenly be very concerned about all of the other dolls around Transylvito! :lol:

EDIT: Oops, then again "blood" is not really a thing in Erfworld. So, they would have no idea who had croaked him. They might expend quite a bit of effort searching the capital for a stealth unit with the doll sitting there smiling the entire time. :lol:

Well, they could find the doll still stabbing Bill's several-hours-dead corpse in his workshop. There would be no question about the source of death and it would be whole new level of disturbing for them.

I was thinking more along the lines of:

Caesar: Okay, okay, I can see the benefits of allying with Gobwin Knob, but Don will never go for it.

Parson: What if Don was out of the picture?

Caesar: I'd have'ta croak the bastard responsible just on principle.

Maggie: Oh my! It seems one of your Dollamancer's dolls just croaked your king!

Caesar: Bill, I hereby disband you for treason!


if it happened as described above, I'd still be very happy.
ManaCaster wrote:
Sunny wrote:

I don't think it was formally binding, but pulling out would be EXTREMELY poor form. Like "pissing on the constitution/bible/whatever it is you swear on in court before you testify"-bad. While everyone is watching.

Royals have a habit of finding loopholes around honor.

And non-royals like Stanley couldn't give a crap about it anyways. I think TV is pretty free to do whatever. But imo, they're gonna take the schmuckers, like it would help them against a side which can give away that much without a fuss.

This is why they should not be anywhere near Charlie. If they can be bought, he's going to own them. And at some point he'll get his schmuckers back.
gchristopher wrote:
I hope, for his own sake, that Rich has thought through how to handle the rape implications which are being debated here.

A sizable proportion of the Erfworld readership will definitely see the strong parallels to rape as a torture mechanism in this comic. That's a topic that needs more careful handling than other aspects of war. Certainly today's comic is more graphic and evocative, almost to the point of being a departure in style.

Regardless of where you stand on how to interpret the events (whether rape or not), the fact is that this scene will be read by a large number of people who cannot ignore the similarities and may be strongly affected by it.

When forming opinions, I suggest giving those people (RL victims of rape or abuse), some extra consideration. They're the audience on whom we should be considering the impact of the comic.

For their sake also, I hope the author has put some serious thought into where he's going with this.

Why should Rich think through the implications of bad assumptions which may / may not be made by other people? The only reason anyone is thinking "rape" is because the victim of this torture is a woman, even though the woman herself asks "What did you do to me?". I think we can be certain Maggie would know if she'd been raped. That's clear evidence she was not physically violated. Instead, she was creepy-tortured somehow, but we don't know how.

Here's a litmus test on the issue - about the first thing we see in Erfworld is a woman being tortured by another woman, and it's heavily implied SEXUAL torture is involved. Dominatrix outfit, dominant behavior, the whole conversation pretty much says "woman-on-woman sex torture ahoy".

At that point in the comic, were there horribly shocked reactions and a convention of rape-victim supporters on the forums? Were there warnings to the author that he might have gone too far?

Would there have been if the torturer were a man instead of a woman?
Vendanna wrote:
Keybounce wrote:
That's political correctness gone too far.

The thing each person should ask him/herself is this. Are you a politic? No, then you shouldn't be political correct.

Politics deceive and say these stupid things because they want votes. not because its the natural thing to do (most of them don't even believe in what they are saying) and I think that "political correctness" is a disease of the mind.

When you read news about a "alleged Murderer" that just knifed to death (with witnesses to boot) that have seen the deed done, (where's the alleged in that?) you see that something is going wrong with the world.

And I'm not referring to the crime, but about the "political correctness virus". I don't condone crimes.

Where do you think these allegations come from if not the witnesses?

neko wrote:

I would speculate that this is one of his roles for TV - he is the "cellar dweller" Gaoler, as well as the interrogator of any prisoner so unfortunate as to stay in the TV dungeons. If this is accurate, Doller Bill is probably quite adept at Turnamancy. It is, as has been pointed out, on the same axis as Dollamancy. He is most likely quite an experienced and old caster (at least as long-lived as Bunny...20+ years IIRC) - he is also a sick f*ck that the reader is being set up NOT to empathize with.

EDITED for spelling

If we were being set up not to empathize with the guy, we wouldn't be getting his Point of View.

I think you mean sympathise.
Pete wrote:
500 posts, one reaction thread. Is that a record?

Edit: nope. This is the fifth thread to hit 500 replies, the record is 627 for book 2 p 110.

I remember that. 12 hours before p 111 was put up there was a whole conspericy to break 600. Good times.