Book 3 - Page 145

No fruit cup? Fruit cups or we riot

Book 3 - Page 145
Comic - Book 3 - Page 145

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zilfallon wrote:

Yeah, I think it's about time Parson did something genius in this book. I mean, Jed was a brilliant idea, but it has been a while since then :D

We're really harsh at judging him, aren't we? :P

Well, it has been a time for others to shine. The Jed bit was cool and ultimately Parson's doing but he does not even know about that yet.

The Bunny gambit will probably pay off eventually.

He was pretty cool under intense pressure with the Lillith situation.

But as time has gone on he has been less and less in the driving seat and that has been a little tedious. But it's getting better.
Anomynous 167 wrote:

You mean Arthas, right?

I think you may be over-estimating Prince Arthas' character shift in your analogy. You see, Arthas was always a bit of a dick, only thing that changed when he turned to the Scourge was that the people he loves to protect is now his personal undead horde...

On second thought, the comparison with Arthas was spot on.

Yeah, ArtHas, my mistake :)

He was never an ideal paladin, true, but the fact he completely changed his loyalties and was willing to kill all those he was fighting to protect before, while siding with those he loathed, came out of the blue (and wasn't a fluent development of his character - while he was shown as somebody ready to make sacrifices to defend the kingdom, until taking Frostmourne he wasn't a traitor to his people as a whole). He turned very cruel and selfish, as opposed to overly proud yet generally righteous person he was before (his demeanour became sadistic).

Decrypted work pretty much the same way - minutes after being killed they already become fanatics of Toolism, even if they used to hate it with passion (Bea's daughter and Chief Warlord are the best example, as it was enough to perduade Bea to commut suicide in terror).

zilfallon wrote:
I don't see how it matters for the "decryption changes personality" discussion that it is instant compared to turnamancy that can take a while. The end result is the same. It is irrelevant to the thing we're discussing.

While Turnamancy merely changes unit's loyalty, Decryption alters their dundamental ideology, which I would say is far more impressive and significant. Most of Erf's population doesn't see decrypted as real people for a reason (while it's not the case with Turnamancy) - it just shows how drastic this change is.
MerchLis wrote:
minutes after being killed they already become fanatics of Toolism

I actually want to talk about this. Between Jack, Artemis, Bonnie, and probably a couple others I can't think of right now, we actually have a pretty clear sense of what changes when people are Decrypted. Specifically, it seems to me that there are three changes. (Listed here in increasing order of apparent importance to the Decrypted)

  • They become loyal to their new side.

  • They love Wanda.

  • They perceive the Arkenpliers as something Glorious.

The order of those last two is up for debate, and I suspect there's a fair bit of crossover between the two- i.e., the Decrypted may love Wanda partly because she holds the Pliers. Which should be interesting to explore in the upcoming updates, now that Wanda is separated from them.

So from this, I would like to point out a couple things. First, Decrypted don't necessarily convert to Toolism. Ansom did, because that's what he had to do to reconcile himself with his new outlook. But others, like Jack, could care seemingly less about Toolism. Second, the power of any of the points listed above can change. Lilith placed her loyalty to Gobwin Knob above her love for Wanda when she told Parson why she didn't attack Charlie. Ossomer turned back.

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that... none of those, save maybe the last, are substantially different from what a Turnamancer can do. It just happens faster. Any other changes are just the Decrypted person doing whatever they need to do, or thinking what they need to think, in order to justify those changes.
Dont touch my mustache wrote:
MerchLis wrote:

They both originate from a Japanese-styled side, and what food is there that is more Japanese than sushi? It's quite simple, really.

Probably miso. Maybe natto ?

Vending machine underwear?
MerchLis wrote:
Decryption alters their dundamental ideology

No, it doesn't alter their fundamental ideology. Ansom converting to toolism doesn't necessarily apply to all decrypted, it is a fact that not all decrypted change their ideaology. No offense but I really don't see how we can continue discussing if you're denying facts.

Longform wrote:
Dont touch my mustache wrote:
MerchLis wrote:

They both originate from a Japanese-styled side, and what food is there that is more Japanese than sushi? It's quite simple, really.

Probably miso. Maybe natto ?

Vending machine underwear?

I find it very disturbing that you give vending machine underwear as an example when they were talking about food :D
So I don't think Ansom is significantly different in terms of what we would call "Personality". He' still a stuffed shirt who cleaves to his ideals and believes in noble action. But I feel that saying he (and Bea's daughter) switched from the royal mandate to toolism instantly upon being decroaked cannot be described as standard logical character development. Ansom already knew 2 of the arkentools were attuned to non-royals. A third one also being attuned wouldn't cause him to completely change his ideology and become a fanatical toolist. The old Ansom would probably have felt that this meant the titans wanted wanda to join the royals or something or come to the conclusion Slately did that this was a sign from the titans that they had strayed from their path and needed to be BETTER royals and reup the royal ideal.

What I'm saying is that converting Ansom to toolism is, in and of itself, a funadmental shift for him in terms of who he is that he would have fought tooth and nail and never accepted without being decrypted. If the original Ansom were ditto'd from the past somehow through a ditto/tunamancy link he would be horrified by uncroaked Ansom even with all the information uncroaked Ansom has. For other people, it is less extreme. The pliers, I believe, either raise you/make a new you (we have no strong evidence to support either and from a philosophical, ship of Theseus, sort of standpoint they're arguably the same thing) that's comparable to a buffyverse vampire. You're still you in most major ways. You have the same memories, same friendship connections, same general personality (Harmony is still dumb and seeks approval from an alpha, Spike is still a hopeless romantic poet etc) but you're not entirely the same person. Fundamantal aspects of who you are have been altered to make you ok with killing and eating people in buffyverse and flying under Wanda's banner in Erfworld. Ossomer is like Spike who, despite being an undead "turned" and got his soul back because of who he was and what his values were. It doesn't prove he's still the same person entirely, just that the process isn't 100% perfect.

It's either super effective turnamancy or far more realistic decryption and either way Ossomer (or maybe notOssomer) was just given the exact set of circumstances and personality traits needed to create a higher loyalty to his family and old way of life than to Wanda after his father shamed him because that was his big red button that got pushed.

EDIT: One thing to remember before saying they definitely AREN'T just simulacrum is Judy's golems that Maxwell gave life to. They effectively thought and lived and had Life and it was treated as proof that Life wasn't special.. but only as long as Maxwell lived, then they went to just golems because he was just sharing his Life with them. We have an in universe story about things that look and are treated as living units but are actually just golems with fancy magic on them.
Ahh, but even if we concede their life is drawn from another, does that make the fact that they live their own personalities (or nearly their own) less important?
spriteless wrote:
Ahh, but even if we concede their life is drawn from another, does that make the fact that they live their own personalities (or nearly their own) less important?

Well this is an interesting point. People often act like EITHER they are the same people given a second life OR they're worthless golems undeserving of existence or consideration. There's no reason they can't be simulacrum who are their own people with rights to existence all their own. The question though is, given the Maxwell story, is their existence contingent of Wanda's? Because if so, that's a pretty huge single point of failure. Moreso even than an heirless ruler because if his warlords spin off their own sides they can survive his end, a decrypted couldn't.

If they ARE new people then that means what Wanda does (barring the suggestion spell on Jillian) isn't actually mind alteration like turnamancy would be. It's using bodies to make new units. Which actually lines up pretty well with croakamancy's schtick so I'd argue has a strong case to be true given Wanda's main dicipline and the one it's extending. HOWEVER given that croakmancy works by fixing the body and magically animating what can't be fixed this could imply that she's now just animating it far more effectively to the point where its brain and mind are ALSO back in which case it is turnamancy with a built in hard reboot.

Either way, whether new people based on the body they occupy or old people who got rewritten somewhat they're definitely PEOPLE in some regard and aren't "just" golems.
Arkaim wrote:
Mirage GSM wrote:

They feed grade schoolers Pizza where you're from?

They don't where you're from?

No, when I was in grade school, we didn't get any kind of meal - we went home for lunch - but even if there had been school-sponsored meals, it would certainly not have been something as unhealthy as pizza - and that was before all that health craze set in.
When I was in Highschool, pizza was on the menu in the cafeteria.
zilfallon wrote:
True. Arthas is actually an example of "decryption" not changing someone's personality :P He was never the ideal paladin. He changed after becoming lich king, not a death knight, and that's because he basically merged with Nerzhul.

It's probably Sylvanas who had the bigger personality change after her "decryption", but in her case it's probably more the bitterness and anger over her fate that changed her personality than the "decryption" process itself...

Hard to say what, if anything, has changed