Book 5 - Prologue 1

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Book 5 - Prologue 1
Comic - Book 5 - Page 1

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shweta wrote:
Seanfish -- very much agree that it's ok to let that burden go. But it's not always possible, and certainly not immediately, and when it's always the marginalized people being asked to let go of the hurt, that can turn into its own hurt. (Spouse and I are both disabled, I'm also otherwise multiply marginalized, for context.)

And having space to say "I'm hurt" and not "It's ok it's nothing" is a huge deal -- I think we all need that before we can truly let it go rather than suppressing it, y'know?

Hug.
Damien wrote:

(CW Politics)

Indeed, it's easy to say that the suffering of somebody else is worth it, in the end, for the greater good, when you're receiving the good and not receiving the suffering.


Exactly.

seanfish wrote:


I have two reactions here.

First is, I entirely agree with what you say here. My wife has a relatively newly acquired disability, and we are encountering prejudice we'd never envisioned and devastating uncaring that has left us floored - although we got a laugh out of the freedom offered when store-based perfume sprayers step back as we make our way past because OBVIOUSLY disabled people don't care how they smell.

The second part is - don't be disappointed and hurt. People don't know the truth of the world until someone tells them and even then often not truly until they experience it themselves, and if you'll be hurt by everyone who doesn't see the problem with your clarity you'll spend too much of your time being hurt to help.

Start with caring by showing it, even to those who don't get it and perhaps especially to them.


seanfish wrote:

Hello! Thank you for joining the conversation.

I fully understand that Jade is speaking from caring. I completely got their rant, and that it was motivated from damn well caring enough to tell people to be better. I'm onside with the sentiment - just not down with their feeling hurt. Please note that I am down with their expressing hurt and not in any way wishing to silence them.

For that reason, I'm caring for them - not chastising but saying, it's ok to have strangers (and even friends that should know better, of which there are many) in the world let you down and not take it as a personal hurt. I'm having to do it every day in my life with the personal stuff I'm dealing with. I do have days when I resent the hell out of people, but those are the days my (our because it's actually my wife who is disabled) burden is harder to bear.

It's a hard goal to reach, but learning how to live a life where you forgive people the minute they let you down and not carry what is really their bummer is a gift.



Long response is long :P
Spoiler: show
Hello Seanfish :D I'm sorry for what you and your wife are dealing with; it's hard when you're like not even treated like a person, or a complete person. And the world was built for able bodied people, so it's like you're purposefully made aware that you do not belong with everyone else. Without delving too deep in your personal life, I hope your wife is able to get whatever accommodations she needs for her disability, and hopefully if it's anything like chronic pain/disability that causes pain it can be eased.

I am feeling better by the way, and I realize that any comments made that seemed dismissive to people with disabilities most likely were not made with malice, but a lack of understanding. I truly enjoy this forum, as much as I love the comic itself, and I enjoy the well thought out and insightful discussions that go on (which is why I used to be such a lurker). So yeah, it was definitely shocking when what I thought would be a rather uncontroversial stance (that people with disabilities deserve equal pay), was getting justifications for why that discrimination was taking place (thereby implying that the discrimination was warranted somehow).

I can't say I won't ever be hurt by or disappointed in people, and feeling like I need to explain why a wrong thing is wrong is mentally and emotionally tiring. Especially when it basically feels like I have to defend why myself and people I care about deserve to be treated like people. And even if it wasn't something that affects me personally, I would still be upset that there are people being treated unjustly. The events of the past two years has definitely been trying, watching sections of my country getting discriminated against, have their rights taken away, and becoming victims of violence and hate. And hearing echoes of that in a place I thought was safe didn't help.

But I understand what you're saying and I appreciate the sentiment.

On the positive side though, something lately that has been giving me comfort is the fact that ancient humans have been found to have cared for members of their groups that had disabilities, injuries, birth defects, elderly, or otherwise needed some amount of assistant or accommodation in order to continue living. There have been several skeletons of ancient people who were paralyzed or had some sort of physical issue, that lived longer than they really should have considering how dangerous times were back then. Their community would have had to provide food and cleaning, and in nomadic cases, carry their member with them. I find it very touching that even way back then, when people were in danger of predators, and survival of the fittest is the most common idea we get of that time, our ancestors had the capacity for compassion and love, to care for their own when needed.


shweta wrote:
Seanfish -- Sorry I don't know how to quote or reply here. Coming out of lurking just to say a thing, because I've seen from your comments that you're good people.

Please understand that Jade's rant *is* a form of caring; it's caring enough to let the other person know they're disappointed and hurt, and why -- despite the fact that it *hurts* to have to explain yourself to someone who's just hurt you, especially when you didn't expect them to.

The full-self-defense response is to leave, block them, otherwise silence the hurtful voices for oneself. Saying why something is pretty terrible is giving people a chance to be less terrible in the future, and that's an awful lot, for free, from someone who's already been hurt, y'know? Please don't ask them for even more.


shweta wrote:
Seanfish -- very much agree that it's ok to let that burden go. But it's not always possible, and certainly not immediately, and when it's always the marginalized people being asked to let go of the hurt, that can turn into its own hurt. (Spouse and I are both disabled, I'm also otherwise multiply marginalized, for context.)

And having space to say "I'm hurt" and not "It's ok it's nothing" is a huge deal -- I think we all need that before we can truly let it go rather than suppressing it, y'know?


Thank you Shweta for your kind words :) And yes, Seanfish is definitely good f̶i̶s̶h̶ people :) I am feeling better, and yes, getting a chance to express the hurt is very helpful.

trilo wrote:

Long post is long.
Spoiler: show
how did this thread end up discussing disability rights? *reads back a few pages* okay, that's how.

I wrote a giant essay but people probably don't want to read a giant essay. I still want to say sub-minimum wage jobs actually do fill a vital role currently. I do think sub-minimum wage should eventually be eliminated, but there need to be alternatives put in place like assistance connecting people with developmental disabilities to volunteer opportunities, daytime social opportunities, etc to fill the roles of the jobs. If the jobs are removed without alternatives in place then a lot of people will be worse off.

there's also a history of problematic organizations changing into something beneficial, like how planned parenthood originally being pro-eugenics but now it helps a lot of people. organizations like goodwill are probably salvageable with the right legislation regulating them.

Currently I am attending a place where they give people food, have us help with the upkeep of the building, "pay" us in credit that we can exchange for items they have like clothing or toothpaste, and arrange various activities likes arts and crafts or learning about a topic like how coffee is produced. It's all paid for by insurance. They do this five days a week for up to 8-9 hours, though you don't have to go every day or stay all day. I am probably going to stop attending eventually since I think my needs are better met by a different environment, but this is the kind of thing I would like to see supplant sub-minimum wage jobs. However it doesn't exist everywhere yet.

edit: I should add that you can't just find out someone is disabled and dock there wage below $7.25. the way it works is that a business has to go through the protocols of establishing people's productivity relative to a baseline of the typical non-disabled worker. people get evaluated periodically and if they're 50% as productive then they get 50% of the wage "theoretically" (assuming it's actually a typical worker and not their most productive worker).

a lot of the people in these jobs are very isolated would not ever be hired at minimum wage, so the chance to be productive and interact with people can be very meaningful for them, and it removes a burden from adult caretakers who might otherwise have to stay home to take care of them. meanwhile others workers in these jobs could earn more than minimum wage in a mainstream setting with training and their efficiency subsidizes the less productive workers. so the question is how do we identify people's varying needs and meet them in a way that's more fair than what currently exists, which is still already better than what existed prior to allowing sub-minimum wage (ie zero opportunities for less productive people who are forced to stay at home all day doing nothing).


Long response is long D:
Spoiler: show
Hello Trilo, yes, I apologize, the deviation from the comic originated from me :P

I am glad that you had access to such a place, it sounds very nice and helpful. I do agree that places such as this or variations of it need to be more commonplace.

With all due respect though, I do not agree that discriminatory practices, such as paying disabled employees less than minimum wage, should continue. Regardless of any benefits being provided while being exploited doesn't change the fact that these people are being exploited, to benefit a multibillion dollar company. A company, who again, claims that by making donations and buying from their stores, will help them to train people and help them to find jobs. I can not stress enough what a mockery of their business statement it is to help people find jobs while devaluing their own workers. If you truly believe you are in business to help people, then honestly start with your own.

I am very well aware of how this practice is implemented. I'm also aware that this law was created during the Great Depression, when the average wage was typically under $1.00 an hour anyway. And prices for things like utilities, rent, food, and gas were priced in proportion to that. Back then, being disabled and being able to earn a few cents an hour was probably better than nothing. You could at least contribute to your family's income that way if not support yourself.

Also, while I'm sure you didn't intend it that way, people with disabilities are not a "burden". I understand what you mean, it does take a financial and time cost to provide care depending on the disability. But that word carries a negative stigma that a lot of people with disabilities, especially ones that require care from loved ones, already feel guilty and self conscious about. No need to make them feel worse please.

I feel we should do better for our fellow humans. We should have systems in place that help families with the cost of caregiving, programs like what you mentioned where it seems that social interaction and bonds can form. But acting like a "charity" is providing those things by taking advantage of people and devaluing their work is not how it should be done.


To everyone else, I apologize for letting the topic go off on this much of a tangent o(_ _;o) Though again, I do enjoy getting the chance to discuss things with people here.
NilsR wrote:
Anomynous 167 wrote:
Well you see, a minister tells you what to do and then you say "Yes, minister".

You forgot the punch line? "Then you go do what needs to be done. Your job is to convince the minister that was what he meant all along, if he later finds out."

I wouldn't say I forgot the punch line. "Yes, minister" is always the punch-line *cue credits*.
Quote:

Also, while I'm sure you didn't intend it that way, people with disabilities are not a "burden". I understand what you mean, it does take a financial and time cost to provide care depending on the disability. But that word carries a negative stigma that a lot of people with disabilities, especially ones that require care from loved ones, already feel guilty and self conscious about. No need to make them feel worse please.


to clarify, what I think is a burden is an adult parent having to care full time for their adult child with no assistance from the wider community to the point they can't take a job causing the whole family to have to live in poverty. that lack of assistance is a burden on both the parent and disabled person and having somewhere the disabled person can safely spend the day lifts that burden. I have never in my life referred to an actual person as a burden, but I am not going to remove the word from my vocabulary either.

also to clarify, I was explaining how it works for the benefit of other people reading the thread, given that most people in general are unfamiliar with the specifics. I think there's a danger in people going "that's unjust!", getting rid of the programs, and then going back to what they were doing feeling like they did one for disabled people even though the most vulnerable disabled people end up worse off. secondarily there's a danger in people going "that's unjust!", finding out some disabled people benefit from and want to keep their subminimum wage jobs, and going "oh, I guess it's not actually unjust" because they don't realize there are better ways to meet these needs.

I'm not actually advocating to continue the current law, but in fact it is the law and will continue unless it is replaced, so continuing the law for the time being is not something I need to advocate for or against. a much more interesting question for me "how do we get a replacement that causes less harm and more benefit?", which is what I've tried to talk about in this thread and what I value, and this involves recognizing that some people may be currently having their needs met in a way that's flawed but more beneficial than nothing at all. recognizes this creates room for improvements that are beneficial in both the abstract and concrete, rather than merely in the abstract.
greycat wrote:
Metallicat wrote:

Westinghouse also has an interesting history as an inventor, and the chief rival to Thomas Edison. Despite the fact that Westinghouse "won" the Battle Of The Currents (AC electricity vs Edison's DC), [...]

Are you confusing Westinghouse with Tesla?


Tesla worked for Westinghouse after Edison.
Jade wrote:
And yes, Seanfish is definitely good f̶i̶s̶h̶ people :)


Thank you! And very much not living up to my words this week and not carrying things lightly at all so there's how it goes.

Also thank you to Shweta, yes you're as right as everyone else in this conversation. :)
Having come back here via link from Leafsw0rd ...

historylive wrote:
Somebody asked about Byrne's signamancy - ignoring the color and the cloak, that's basically an Australian World War I uniform. The slouch hat is a dead giveaway. What the cloak is doing there I'm not sure, though.


Amusing we both used the term "dead giveaway."

Gelrir wrote:
Other armies wore slouch hats, including the Germans in Africa during WW1. Grey color and cloaks could be some schutztruppen officer garb.


Speaking as an American, and one that was pretty good in school, and who paid attention during class and while watching documentaries ... I can't recall ever seeing a German in that uniform. Although Parson is a wargame nut so maybe he will have seen it. At the very least if he had seen it it makes sense for a subconscious melding of the two Signamancies.

Leafsw0rd wrote:
Underclock could be a reference to colloquial name of The Land Down Under, but Byrne is a name not entirely out of the blue for an Aus side. The umlaut is a bit a question mark, though.


IIRC, the umlaut means it would be pronounced like Ooonderclock, which I expect may tie into a joke somewhere that might not even have anything to do with underclocking/overclocking. Well ... to be more accurate, I expect 2 jokes. One about over/underclocking, the other about the pronunciation.

Leafsw0rd wrote:
Anyway, Joe Byrne, while not a very big name by himself, was part of Ned Kelly's notorious gang.


Yeah, again, speaking as an American in the same way I did a few lines up ... never heard of him. I mean ... the Tutelaries I know I've seen while clicking around on Wikipedia and the like while reading up on things that interest me, or I'd seen on some TV show (if I hadn't already learned of them in school). But Byrne? Not even close.

But who knows what parson's been exposed to. I also never read the Velveteen Bunny, so maybe Erfworld isn't only based on what's in Parson's head. Though if Erfworld does include things not in Parson's head that really does lead back to the existential questions of what Erfworld is. If it's restricted to things in his head then at least some of the ideas I've seen thrown around could make sense. I've yet to see a good theory that would explain knowledge outside his head.
Fla_Panther wrote:

IIRC, the umlaut means it would be pronounced like Ooonderclock, which I expect may tie into a joke somewhere that might not even have anything to do with underclocking/overclocking. Well ... to be more accurate, I expect 2 jokes. One about over/underclocking, the other about the pronunciation.

For me, the umlaut conveys two signs:
1) It mirrors the German prefix Ãœber, which I believe means something like "above, over". Ãœnder is like a punnish antonym.
2) Gratuitously adding umlauts on random vowels in English words was sometimes done in an attempt to look "metal" in the 1980s. Consider rock band names like Blue Öyster Cult and Green Jellÿ (formerly Green Jellö). Today, it's considered tacky and immature.

(Hellabad, it was tacky even back then.)
greycat wrote:
Fla_Panther wrote:

IIRC, the umlaut means it would be pronounced like Ooonderclock, which I expect may tie into a joke somewhere that might not even have anything to do with underclocking/overclocking. Well ... to be more accurate, I expect 2 jokes. One about over/underclocking, the other about the pronunciation.

For me, the umlaut conveys two signs:
1) It mirrors the German prefix Ãœber, which I believe means something like "above, over". Ãœnder is like a punnish antonym.
2) Gratuitously adding umlauts on random vowels in English words was sometimes done in an attempt to look "metal" in the 1980s. Consider rock band names like Blue Öyster Cult and Green Jellÿ (formerly Green Jellö). Today, it's considered tacky and immature.

(Hellabad, it was tacky even back then.)

Now that you mention it, the first thing that came to mind when I read "Ãœnderclock" was OverClocked ReMix, which is a website for videogame covers. I didn't say anything then since I figured someone else would make the association.

Speaking of metal. I figured that "Melly Melbourne" would be a great name for an Underclocked Rhymanancer (Then I found out that the guy I was basing the Rhymamancer off of was a Brummie). So I figured that would be an even better name for a Carpuddlian! He could have this thing where he hates Transilvitans so much that he develops a condition called "Batmania", which leads him to bite the heads off of bats!

Which also makes me think. Is "Brum" signamantically congruent as a Carpuddlian city name? On the one hand "Brum" doesn't start with "Car" like Carpool's other cities. On the other hand, "Car" does start with "Brum".
I hope the little tush button on Portia's right sleeve is the Sofaking's emblem