Recent posts... (See full thread)
Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:06 pm
The debate about fire in the MK boils down to, more or less, one point. Does the MK need to be uncontested for Dirtamancers to put out an Inferno?
Personally, I'm kind of on the fence about it. The wording of the fire rules, as Parson recounted them, seems to imply that Dirtamancers are exempt from the 'needs to be uncontested' rule, but it's also a very vague implication rather than a direct statement. And we also need to ultimately keep in mind that we have NOT ever seen the actual fire rules of Erfworld; we've seen Parson's notes on them. We do not know if the actual rules say that Dirtamancers also are subject to the uncontested rule, and Parson simply did not mention it, as it did not need to be put down for his own reference.
That'd be a bit of misdirection on the part of the author, to have Parson leave out a bit of optional information in his notes, but it would be understandable misdirection. It's misdirection I'd look at and go 'Ha, good job, pullin' that on us' instead of being angry at. So, I still think it's possible.
Personally, I'm kind of on the fence about it. The wording of the fire rules, as Parson recounted them, seems to imply that Dirtamancers are exempt from the 'needs to be uncontested' rule, but it's also a very vague implication rather than a direct statement. And we also need to ultimately keep in mind that we have NOT ever seen the actual fire rules of Erfworld; we've seen Parson's notes on them. We do not know if the actual rules say that Dirtamancers also are subject to the uncontested rule, and Parson simply did not mention it, as it did not need to be put down for his own reference.
That'd be a bit of misdirection on the part of the author, to have Parson leave out a bit of optional information in his notes, but it would be understandable misdirection. It's misdirection I'd look at and go 'Ha, good job, pullin' that on us' instead of being angry at. So, I still think it's possible.
Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:58 pm
AFormerLurker wrote:
The debate about fire in the MK boils down to, more or less, one point. Does the MK need to be uncontested for Dirtamancers to put out an Inferno?
Personally, I'm kind of on the fence about it. The wording of the fire rules, as Parson recounted them, seems to imply that Dirtamancers are exempt from the 'needs to be uncontested' rule, but it's also a very vague implication rather than a direct statement. And we also need to ultimately keep in mind that we have NOT ever seen the actual fire rules of Erfworld; we've seen Parson's notes on them. We do not know if the actual rules say that Dirtamancers also are subject to the uncontested rule, and Parson simply did not mention it, as it did not need to be put down for his own reference.
That'd be a bit of misdirection on the part of the author, to have Parson leave out a bit of optional information in his notes, but it would be understandable misdirection. It's misdirection I'd look at and go 'Ha, good job, pullin' that on us' instead of being angry at. So, I still think it's possible.
Personally, I'm kind of on the fence about it. The wording of the fire rules, as Parson recounted them, seems to imply that Dirtamancers are exempt from the 'needs to be uncontested' rule, but it's also a very vague implication rather than a direct statement. And we also need to ultimately keep in mind that we have NOT ever seen the actual fire rules of Erfworld; we've seen Parson's notes on them. We do not know if the actual rules say that Dirtamancers also are subject to the uncontested rule, and Parson simply did not mention it, as it did not need to be put down for his own reference.
That'd be a bit of misdirection on the part of the author, to have Parson leave out a bit of optional information in his notes, but it would be understandable misdirection. It's misdirection I'd look at and go 'Ha, good job, pullin' that on us' instead of being angry at. So, I still think it's possible.
I think at least part of the whole 'uncontested' thing is that while fighting a fire a unit can't do anything else. Like, say, defend themselves from attacking enemies. So, by fighting a fire in a contested area units are basically giving all of their foes a free shot at them.
So, yeah, the Dirtamancers could probably put out any inferno any party cares to start, but doing so is going to occupy their attention and Juice and remove them as a variable from other equations for as long as they are fighting the fire. And when they're done, they will likely be much lower on Juice, thus reducing their capacity as a threat.
As far as the argument of no fires in the MK and the rule's relation to Dirtamancers... Well, they have a monopoly on fighting infernos and the MK Dirtamancers don't exactly strike me as a particularly altruistic group, so...
Imagine your home is burning down and when the fire truck shows up they want a thousand dollars up front to put it out for you. That could very well be what MK Dirtamancers are like given what we know about them (they apparently have enough political clout to claim all the guns left in the MK), the general demand for their services (Sizemore was able to become filthy rich despite actively underpricing his services and trying to refuse payment at times), and the price fixing they sometimes engage in (why the tunnel from GK portal to Spacerock portal never got filled in).
Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:44 pm
Arcana wrote:
Several people have mentioned Parson’s coughing fit and the cigarette smoke. I have a different view on this. I think that there is hostile magic at work, causing Parson to cough and possibly harm him; definitely interfering with his ability to speak.
Here are my reasons. No one else has been coughing around Caesar while he was smoking. We also know that Parson has been very close to Caesar when he had a lit cigarette. After the first interrogation, Parson had several cigarette burns on him. I also think that there were other times that Parson was near Caesar while he was smoking.
It also wouldn’t make sense to put an image of Charley and Jojo in the middle of the page unless they were relevant. Is it possible that there is a bat within earshot of this conversation? I seem to remember Caesar was standing on the balcony a few updates ago.
It is possible that Charley could hear this whole dialogue by spying on a bat, and is now doing something to sabotage it. I also note that Benjamin just guessed very accurately about the contract that Parson signed with Charley and which Parson can’t speak about. Charley wouldn’t want Caesar to know much more about that.
Here are my reasons. No one else has been coughing around Caesar while he was smoking. We also know that Parson has been very close to Caesar when he had a lit cigarette. After the first interrogation, Parson had several cigarette burns on him. I also think that there were other times that Parson was near Caesar while he was smoking.
It also wouldn’t make sense to put an image of Charley and Jojo in the middle of the page unless they were relevant. Is it possible that there is a bat within earshot of this conversation? I seem to remember Caesar was standing on the balcony a few updates ago.
It is possible that Charley could hear this whole dialogue by spying on a bat, and is now doing something to sabotage it. I also note that Benjamin just guessed very accurately about the contract that Parson signed with Charley and which Parson can’t speak about. Charley wouldn’t want Caesar to know much more about that.
It's Caesar's special. It gives Parson a wasting disease that doesn't heal by turn's end.
You see, Caesar doesn't like that Parson lied to him and so he doesn't trust Parson. So he figured he's better off killing the Chief Warlord of Gobwin Knob if they're going to be enemies anyway.
It's called "lung cancer."
Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:22 pm
Hehe, speaking of which, Parson was telling the truth about having a "chance to crit" someone with his blood, if you look at it that way. He was just exaggerating the odds (and neglecting the steep prerequisite).
If a fire in the MK goes inferno at the same time that someone is assaulting the Dirtamansion and basically croaks or captures all of the Dirtamancers, and Wanda doesn't decrypt any of them for whatever reason, then the MK could really burn down.
So as a plan to force the MK to release Wanda so she can use the 'pliers to save the MK, this works but seems markedly inferior to the plan where you use the fact that you've killed all the Dirtamancers to just take the Dirtamansion and free Wanda herself. It doesn't include the fiddly bit about people 'seeing reason' when you've just hit them with a bunch of atrocities. And since, reasonably speaking, if you are croaking/capturing all the Dirtamancers you are capturing all the rifles being used to defend the Dirtamansion and repatriating the prisoners outside, I really don't see how there is anyone you need to convince to let you free Wanda.
Unless Maggie figures out how to remote cut threads without using juice, or perhaps how to use Jed to do it from distant hexes, and that's how you croak all the Dirtamancers in the MK, rather than by more direct combat actions. But I think if Maggie can do that, you don't need to start a fire, you just need to demonstrate that you can kill everyone who opposes you.
If a fire in the MK goes inferno at the same time that someone is assaulting the Dirtamansion and basically croaks or captures all of the Dirtamancers, and Wanda doesn't decrypt any of them for whatever reason, then the MK could really burn down.
So as a plan to force the MK to release Wanda so she can use the 'pliers to save the MK, this works but seems markedly inferior to the plan where you use the fact that you've killed all the Dirtamancers to just take the Dirtamansion and free Wanda herself. It doesn't include the fiddly bit about people 'seeing reason' when you've just hit them with a bunch of atrocities. And since, reasonably speaking, if you are croaking/capturing all the Dirtamancers you are capturing all the rifles being used to defend the Dirtamansion and repatriating the prisoners outside, I really don't see how there is anyone you need to convince to let you free Wanda.
Unless Maggie figures out how to remote cut threads without using juice, or perhaps how to use Jed to do it from distant hexes, and that's how you croak all the Dirtamancers in the MK, rather than by more direct combat actions. But I think if Maggie can do that, you don't need to start a fire, you just need to demonstrate that you can kill everyone who opposes you.
Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:33 pm
Blackmore wrote:
I don't know why anyone thinks an inferno would destroy the magic kingdom. It's not as though there is an entire faction of potential firefighters, some who are masterclass. Also, even in bedrock, it pretty clear that anyone in a hex suffers an inferno dot. I suspect that the plan to entomb a ruler or unit inside of bedrock to prevent capture of a city could be defeated with hex wide fire.
It would, however, distract said firefighters from their firing squad if enough fires are started away from the area where they are executing. It's pretty noteworthy that the art showing that area was pretty solidly in dirtamancer custody.
It would, however, distract said firefighters from their firing squad if enough fires are started away from the area where they are executing. It's pretty noteworthy that the art showing that area was pretty solidly in dirtamancer custody.
Point #1: Juice is finite. There are approx 20 Dirtamancers in the MK according to http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/156, so that is a pretty deep juice well. But it's still not a limitless juice well. The turn Sizemore put out the inferno in Spacerock, he only had enough juice to 1) Dig the tunnel between portals, 2) Put out the inferno in a Capitol City (not as large an area as the MK), 3) Construct the ziggurat where croaked units were stacked waiting for decryption. Extrapolate from there x 20.
Chiu ChunLing wrote:
But intentionally setting the MK on fire would be a diplomatic disaster, especially if it worked, and this entire book has been about trying to avoid those, because of how they can lead to more conventionally military disasters.
Point #2: While GK starting an MK fire can be used as a tactical distraction by Parson n Crew, it's only one possible fire scenario (as @Chiu has mentioned in another post). Also possible is that it's a Fate Fire, or caused by some other non-Parson Agent. Like maybe portal shenanigans taking place under the bedrock? Lit cig getting tossed through the TV portal? Sharks with lasers on their foreheads? Who knows? This sets up a Parson-as-savior scenario by allowing units to Turn to GK (or an allied side) to escape.
Personally, I don't think we'll see fire in this book. Even though we were reminded of the no fires rule in http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/79. But it's a fun thought exercise.
Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:38 am
I had a thought earlier today. I'm viewing "The Joker" as one of the titans.
No, seriously, it fits with how Erfworld has been put together.
Take the Magic Kingdom, named after a happy place, a place of family fun and entertainment, even if it is expensive to get into (IDK, I only go with my family so I've never actually paid myself), a place based on an entertainment industry/company to further entertain people with a sense of hope and wonder. It may be espensive but it is by no means exclusive, admission requires a ticket and that's it.
Take the Magic Kingdom as it is in Erfworld. A place of stagnation, separation and segregation, where the casters who lost their side get to roll the rigged dice as their magical discipline determines whether or not they're rich, poor, just-getting-bye, or just plain tolerated at all! Nobody but casters are even ABLE to visit it without breaking the rules. Everyone is so busy keeping secrets from each other that it's nigh impossible to get any genuine good done, the most good that happens is accidental, a place of secrets, lies, secrets disguised as lies and lies disguised as secrets... and that's if the guy telling you these secrets and lies LIKES you! And any attempt to break the status quo (as far as we've seen) is either punished or declared OP and then punished anyway.
And what is this? What is this vast difference between these two, this "here's one and here's the other"? What is it?
A bad joke.
A joke just like the kind that "The Joker" would tell.
And the worst part of it all? I think I'm right, not because I think that "The Joker" is literally a titan, but because I think it fits with Erfworld's general theme. Parson himself pointed out how many "evil" motifs Stanley had going for him, and he's supposed to be the (vaguely) good guy here! The whole "X in one world is Y in another" is kinda a thing, the whole story is like one big cruel joke on, like, everything.
So yeah, that's my thought.
No, seriously, it fits with how Erfworld has been put together.
Take the Magic Kingdom, named after a happy place, a place of family fun and entertainment, even if it is expensive to get into (IDK, I only go with my family so I've never actually paid myself), a place based on an entertainment industry/company to further entertain people with a sense of hope and wonder. It may be espensive but it is by no means exclusive, admission requires a ticket and that's it.
Take the Magic Kingdom as it is in Erfworld. A place of stagnation, separation and segregation, where the casters who lost their side get to roll the rigged dice as their magical discipline determines whether or not they're rich, poor, just-getting-bye, or just plain tolerated at all! Nobody but casters are even ABLE to visit it without breaking the rules. Everyone is so busy keeping secrets from each other that it's nigh impossible to get any genuine good done, the most good that happens is accidental, a place of secrets, lies, secrets disguised as lies and lies disguised as secrets... and that's if the guy telling you these secrets and lies LIKES you! And any attempt to break the status quo (as far as we've seen) is either punished or declared OP and then punished anyway.
And what is this? What is this vast difference between these two, this "here's one and here's the other"? What is it?
A bad joke.
A joke just like the kind that "The Joker" would tell.
Quote:
It's all a joke! Everything anybody ever valued or struggled for... it's all a monstrous, demented gag! So why can't you see the funny side? Why aren't you laughing?
And the worst part of it all? I think I'm right, not because I think that "The Joker" is literally a titan, but because I think it fits with Erfworld's general theme. Parson himself pointed out how many "evil" motifs Stanley had going for him, and he's supposed to be the (vaguely) good guy here! The whole "X in one world is Y in another" is kinda a thing, the whole story is like one big cruel joke on, like, everything.
So yeah, that's my thought.
Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:39 am
Too lazy to trawl through 11 pages of posts to see if others have noted this so:
Reactions to images:
1) Jed has so many strings connected to him that they have formed into ropes!
2) Charlie is once again plugged directly into the Arkendish.
Considering how devastating Charlie can be in the short term, I shudder to think what he has been up to while recovering. The longer we don't hear about him the more I worry.
Reactions to images:
1) Jed has so many strings connected to him that they have formed into ropes!
2) Charlie is once again plugged directly into the Arkendish.
Considering how devastating Charlie can be in the short term, I shudder to think what he has been up to while recovering. The longer we don't hear about him the more I worry.
Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:47 am
A Hamster with an idea is a dangerous, dangerous thing.
Also, many people have some sort of self-preservation as a default instinct. It's evolutionary necessity. Some just see that as preservation of the group and its norms as well.
Anyway, this can be useful if they ALSO value something you do.
Also, many people have some sort of self-preservation as a default instinct. It's evolutionary necessity. Some just see that as preservation of the group and its norms as well.
Anyway, this can be useful if they ALSO value something you do.
Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:32 pm
Arci wrote:
Take the Magic Kingdom, named after a happy place, a place of family fun and entertainment, even if it is expensive to get into (IDK, I only go with my family so I've never actually paid myself), a place based on an entertainment industry/company to further entertain people with a sense of hope and wonder. It may be espensive but it is by no means exclusive, admission requires a ticket and that's it.
Take the Magic Kingdom as it is in Erfworld. A place of stagnation, separation and segregation, where the casters who lost their side get to roll the rigged dice as their magical discipline determines whether or not they're rich, poor, just-getting-bye, or just plain tolerated at all! Nobody but casters are even ABLE to visit it without breaking the rules. Everyone is so busy keeping secrets from each other that it's nigh impossible to get any genuine good done, the most good that happens is accidental, a place of secrets, lies, secrets disguised as lies and lies disguised as secrets... and that's if the guy telling you these secrets and lies LIKES you! And any attempt to break the status quo (as far as we've seen) is either punished or declared OP and then punished anyway.
Take the Magic Kingdom as it is in Erfworld. A place of stagnation, separation and segregation, where the casters who lost their side get to roll the rigged dice as their magical discipline determines whether or not they're rich, poor, just-getting-bye, or just plain tolerated at all! Nobody but casters are even ABLE to visit it without breaking the rules. Everyone is so busy keeping secrets from each other that it's nigh impossible to get any genuine good done, the most good that happens is accidental, a place of secrets, lies, secrets disguised as lies and lies disguised as secrets... and that's if the guy telling you these secrets and lies LIKES you! And any attempt to break the status quo (as far as we've seen) is either punished or declared OP and then punished anyway.
Well, much like the House of Mouse I'm sure there's an inaccurate image that the Magic Kingdom would like to project in ErfWorld, too. The one of harmonious serenity that Sizemore foolishly buys into, for example. But the real world Walt Disney Corporation is corrupt, cutthroat and overbearing, and it's easy to see how this is reflected in the MK "secretly" being a cruel dystopia ruled by shadow governments competing for dominance.
Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:18 pm
sslrranma wrote:
Noigel wrote:
- Oh hey there, a completely unknown math bracer artifact? Let me just causally own this bitch better than the perfect warlord it was meant for in less than a single turn.
I think that's more a Moneymancer thing than a Ben thing. <speculation>His senses allow him to perceive a person or things worth. Spending some time with something allows him to appraise it and figure out why its valuable.</Speculation>
It's nothing too out there. People buy and sell intel and units in Erf, so having someone who's able to value people and information makes sense.
It could also be that Moneymancers senses are like a stock exchange; they maintain records of exchanges that occur and Benjamin picked up on an exchange of information where there shouldn't have been one.
The value of the information that the bracer can exchange might be absurd because it comes from so many sources.