Book 4 - Page 110

Roger, Dodger

Book 4 - Page 110
Comic - Book 4 - Page 110

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ReynardMiri wrote:
I agree with this very strongly. I imagine there is truth, possibly a lot of truth, in what he says. An outsider perspective often provides unique insights. But his perspective is almost entirely Thinkamancy-based, and there's a saying about what the world looks like when you have only a hammer.

You mean, everything is either a nut, a pigeon, or a shockamancy target?

(EDIT: Forgot: a dwagon to tame)
Alkimodon wrote:
Who are you backing? Whom do you give your resources to? Whom do you negotiate with to traverse their territory? Who is in charge of the Croak GK Alliance? Do I have to officially start it? I don't want GK attacking me first! I need allies! How come everyone that's near GK has cold feet on being the first to fight them? How come everyone far away assumes that GK is not their problem? Why is it that Sides are abandoning their official Capitols and setting up base in their second Capitol sites as if they fear their own Portals?

And also. If shit hits the fan too bad? I'll order my Caster to make a bunch of golems with torches. Turn the MK into an Ash Hex. Collapse the Portal Room in rubble.

All of these are short term of course. Until we get an update from some Ruler and all the mail of Thinkagrams that they have exchanged with other Rulers, we don't really know whether or not they're planning anything.

Reading this reminds me of "The internet is under attack, disconnect our machine from the internet for safety" panics from early days of widespread virus attacks on servers/various machines.

Collapse the portal? Disconnect your machine.
Get info from someone about how to protect your machine? Can you trust it / who have they talked to / are they spreading info that gets your machine compromised?
Who is in charge of the "how to defeat this virus" coalition?

We've lived through this in our lifetime, at least, if you are old enough.
barwhack wrote:
Parson frees the erf of its accumulated fate, breaks luck,
ends selves, opens doors, permits anything, stops inevitability,
and reintroduces the heady danger of individual (and even group) freedom.

Without the safe automaticities of fate-golemic certainty...

Parson ... is a nullamancer.

So, with his massive brain, and ability to think of things that others can't, that makes him the ... "Void of Mind"? :-)
Knavigator wrote:
I don't see how that applies to Erfworld though. As far as I can tell, no-one can reload a saved game...

What if this -- "reload a saved game" -- is exactly what a retconjurer would do? My previous thinking was along the line of Achron -- you would send your knowledge/awareness/decision making back, and just like it costs more "command points" to issue orders in the past, it costs more upkeep to have your past self alter what you do.

But if it's a full fledged "reload the saved game board state, but now your upkeep cost is higher and you keep your knowledge of what the old way resulted in" ...

Maybe this is why Charles is so successful -- when something went wrong, he sends a message to the past, the different choice is made, and instead of costing an ever increasing upkeep cost, he carnies it to be the same upkeep cost?

... Oh ... GOD, that's a horrific idea for a fan fic ... CC has a secret Retconjurer, and never has to pay the increasing upkeep cost that normally results in retconjurers always being disbanded for high cost.
keybounce wrote:
barwhack wrote:
Parson frees the erf of its accumulated fate, breaks luck,
ends selves, opens doors, permits anything, stops inevitability,
and reintroduces the heady danger of individual (and even group) freedom.

Without the safe automaticities of fate-golemic certainty...

Parson ... is a nullamancer.

So, with his massive brain, and ability to think of things that others can't, that makes him the ... "Void of Mind"? :-)

If we shall now draw in a reference to naughtier things - like Hyperion - then Parson's brain is:

> The void which minds...
Luitz wrote:

RVC; I hope your demise is like Jojo's mother. Pathetic, salty, useless and impotent.

I don't see how denying thousands of decrypted and the side's treasury was useless of impotent. Victory was not possible at that point, so a warning to the allies, and denying the spoils to the enemy was a smart thing to do. It's like burning Moscow just before Napoleon could claim it.
illrede wrote:
Kaed wrote:
To be perfectly honest, I think this is another story of three blind men and an elephant.

Everyone is so damned fucking sure they alone know the truth about "Fate", unlike the uneducated other casters who just can't understand the bigger picture.

I also sort of don't want to accept that somehow Thinkamancers secretly know everything about the world and are actually the most powerful and knowledgeable casters in existence, and that this is their hubris screwing them over in the end.

The problem with this theory of 'fate golems' is that it sounds very scientific and clean, and resonates with the analytical mindset of the Thinkamancers. But the fact that it also makes everyone look like superstitious fools in their own disciplines is irritating to me.

Maybe it's possible that Rob is finally revealing fate isn't real to the readers, but I'm not biting it without more data.

I think the analysis begs the the hypothesis "A sufficiently large mass of dynamic fate-golems is functionally the entity known as Fate".

If there can be golems made entirely of unobservable luckamancy, why wouldn't it be possible for some sort of ferals (with similar characteristics) to pop randomly within that same domain? If such ferals can exist, why so firmly reject the hypothesis that Predictamancers are telling the truth when they claim to be observing and reporting pre-existing phenomena? The whole thing stinks of improperly motivated cognition.
Vendanna wrote:
Dewey the Signamancer wrote:
But just like Thinkamancers can perform far more powerful and versatile communication than giving Orders (Natural Thinkamancy) surely Croakamancers can do far more with the Self Sacrifice thing if they actually spend Juice on it. And as mentioned earlier they might be able to power or empower spells by performing human sacrifice. :parson::charlie:

Croakmancers have power over frogs :v

But we all know frogs go "La-di-da-di-da. La-di-da-di-da. La-di-da-di-da"
Vendanna wrote:
Now, without joking, probably they have a "Feign death" spell, in which the opposing army think they have killed people but they didn't (ideal for fleeing or for surprise attacks during battle) probably they have also a few incapacitation (but not outright killing) effects, and probably the "Death" spell from Final fantasy 7 (numbers of turns before death) its also possible if they are linked with a Turnamancer.

They also probably have "Speak with death" not that its very useful, and differently from "healing" probably the "mass drain a stack of units to heal my stack of units" its also possible with them.

Ooh, you know what'd be real useful? "Feign deaf", the Croakamancer pretends they can't hear what their superior says.
Or "speak with deaf".

meerling wrote:

Rule of thumb: NEVER trust an NPC to know or tell the absolute truth of the universe, they lie, get fooled, and make mistakes just like everyone else.

I beg to differ. This one time when I was playing Final Fantasy VI, there was this NPC in Zozo who told me that I shouldn't jump between buildings (because it's dangerous). I never got to the airship in that playthrough.
As for these invisible "Luck golems" and "Vengeance Golems", I propose we call them kremlins.
elecampane wrote:
But...if Fate's merely a collection of dictums, created by different predictamancers according to their subconcious thoughts, how come we never once saw two conflicting predictions? Predictamancers in the MK always seem to act in concert, knowing when and which of them has to act and how, as if guided by an invisible director. Surely if there were no way to predict the future, only to make a golem to influence it, predictamancers would be no more in concert that dirtamancers creating physical golems to influence environment (and dirtamancers aren't in concert at all).

The reason we never see conflicting dictums is simple, really. It's a lot easier to predict what has already been predicted. When one predictamancer tries to make a prediction that has already been predicted they return the old result. There is no "New" prediction created.

Although we have seen someone with two competing dictums: Sylvia had both DIE IN A FIRE and CROAK YOURSELF.
Been waiting so long to reply to this update.
0beron wrote:
Not gonna lie....I hate this update.

I haven't felt that....ever. At least no single update I can recall has annoyed and disappointed me so much.

This idea that Thinkamancy is so much better, "knows better" and has the real truths about every kind of frankly bullshit. Perhaps this update is just the blind pompous ignorance of a Thinkamancer talking, which is something we've seen plenty of already and it's getting quite old. Or even worse; Roger is right, and I hate that even more.

I love Thinkamancy, it is a very cool discipline. But this notion (whether correct or not) that every other caster in the world is wrong about their own Disciplines yet Thinkmancy knows the truth does not sit well with me at all.

Personally, I love this update since it shows how right I was almost a year and a half ago:
A conclusion I'm surprised no one else is jumping to is that it is Marie's fault that Charlie is invading the Magic Kingdom. If she hadn't made the prediction that Charlie would invade, he could have been persuaded by Tondelayo to belay such actions.
Marie's predictamancy turned a probable course of events into a certain one.

Y'all doubted me when I accused Marie of being the cause of the Archons invading the Magic Kingdom, but who's laughing now? No one: that's who. Because jokes aren't funny 20 days removed from when they are told. The way my logic held back then was:
Page 123 Tondelayo was like: "Why aren't you listening to me Charlie". And I'm thinking, *hmm, Charlie seems to be unusually deaf to his right-hand Archon*
Page 124: Marie was like "Warning Parson. Archons at 12 O'clock. Also, what's a clock. I predict it". And I'm thinking: Ok, the idea that this battle in the Magic Kingdom was fated to happen from the beginning seems a little far fetched. Predictions seem to be very ad-hoc.

Also, an interesting thing about Dictums is that it helps explain how a "cloudy" future suddenly becomes not cloudy: They make it up as they go along.
In a way, the Predictamancers work a lot like Carnymancers (in at least in how they rig the game). Carnies tend to staple on predictions and fates to others, like Jojo did to Sylvia, or how that other Carny made king Pausbreak be fated to not be croaked by arrows.

Now that I think of it, Roger's... OK, whatever point I was trying to make I just noticed thatDVL ninjad it on page 13

Anyways, I am getting a wee bit annoyed at all these claims of "Unreliable narrator". Now, I forget who said it in their signiture, but someone wrote that "Saying what we have learnt is wrong is not a solid grounds for an argument". I didn't see anyone jumping on the "Unreliable narrator" train back when I was making similar claims to Roger based on observational evidence. The only reason I didn't argue back anything further back then was that everyone seemed to got what I had to say, whilst also claiming I am wrong.... ranting aside.

I dunno, maybe I just have a thing for Roger.
Maybe it's the anti-Parson-ness.
Maybe it's the fact that we were both locked out of hundreds of hours of simulated discussion
Maybe it's the fact that he is a Royalist
Or maybe it's the fact that he is an Archon.
It took me entirely too long to realize that if Predictions are influenced by the subconscious of the Caster, then Delphie probably made the Prediction about Wanda because she wanted her boy toy Clay to herself. I wouldn't be surprised if she'd tried to Predict if Clay would fall in love with Delphie prior to Wanda's popping, and that Prediction was influenced by her subconscious awareness that he just wasn't in to her. Then, Delphie checks to see if he would fall in love with anyone, and the same insecurity that made her ask caused her fears to be affirmed. After that, Delphie would put all of her spare juice into learning as much as she could about the woman her man would love. As a result, she gets a massive burden of Fate.