Book 4 - Epilogue 3

Sternutations!

Book 4 - Epilogue 3
Comic - Book 3 - Page 347
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The Unlurked wrote:
True. On the other hand:

Jed the Head: Get drunk, chill in a spa, and pay Juggalos to breed.

Huehue: Ruler, I just made two dozen decisions for the side in a binding agreement based on guesswork. Then I possibly ticked off the Titans by breaking several rules in front of another Temple who hates me to fix my previous abuses of authority from five minutes ago. I stole manna from Heaven to do it, too.

Shirley Temple: Time for you to get clean of your nasty dope habit! I can run things while you're messed up. Poor thing! Have some popcorn and animal cookies, angel, while I fix things instantly that you used to have to employ people at incredible risk to the side for. Want to watch TV with me to pass the time?

Templeton: I'm trolling you to keep you from antagonizing Fate into finishing croaking everyone you care about. Plus you can't stall the plot with your stubbornness while you're distracted! How did you last this long without a comedy sidekick to foil you? Only the Titans nose! TROLOLOLOL

I'm gonna be honest, at this point I refuse to acknowledge the idea that cheating in Erfworld/annoying the Titans is a problem until we see some actual booping consequences. I accept that they might take some time to rear themselves like those of Parson killing someone under Truce did, but until they do that argument has no value. At least breaking a truce has an imaginable effect on how other players see GK. All cheating has done is gotten more sides to do it.

Jed's actions helped GK immensely. Paying the juggle elves have given them an army loyal to the side rather than Wanda (or at least to the Ruler himself), while Stanley chilling in the spa have kept him out of Parson's hair.
Ignoring the bit about cheating, Huehue making those desicions still saved the side, when Charlie had their ruler in a death trap and they had no heir. Whatever the long term repercussions of those desicions, it is still infinitely better for TV than if he hadn't made them.
Shirley has the power to give control of specific channels to Charlie. She could've just given him every channel except the garden one, while still letting him have his full abilities. And again, she arbitrarily prevented him from ending an enemy side because a caster who'd never sided with them might have slept with the enemy king. I say "might" because Shirley only guessed at that, they did not know. Jed and Huehue have both been what their sides needed so far. Shirley is nothing more than a ball and chain around Charlie's ankle.
I don't have much more to add on Templeton. He just hasn't been showcased enough. But him siding with a caster of dubious loyalty over his own ruler on a hunch is not a good sign that he's going to be a boon to Jillian.

Charlie, going into book 3, was an intimidating antagonist. A man of many means, and the intellect to use them, with only a few flaws. There are ways you can defeat such a foe, and we've seen it done in the story. Him throwing good archons after bad in Portal Park, trying to secure a foe that had by now eluded him because he was too focused on Parson and his Archeons couldn't stand up to him like a chief warlord could? That worked. Another thing that can work is have him being defeated by that one minor thing he missed that the protagonists can take advantage of, like Thrawn in the Timothy Zhan books being defeated because he didn't know Leia and Luke were Vader's children, and could use that to subvert a people he thought was loyal to the Empire.
In Erfworld terms, that might be something like Charlie being surprised by a surprise move by Haggar, a side he'd discounted as too weak to bother with and not noticed GK doing diplomacy with. Double points for being his own actions coming back to haunt him.
themunck wrote:
Shirley has the power to give control of specific channels to Charlie. She could've just given him every channel except the garden one, while still letting him have his full abilities. And again, she arbitrarily prevented him from ending an enemy side because a caster who'd never sided with them might have slept with the enemy king.


I think you're allowing your annoyance at the situation to color your recollection. Here's the page:

https://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/309

Shirley hesitantly mentioned how Charlie didn't say anything about Vanna's baby in the negotiations, and that's it. Charlie made his own decision to bend over backwards to appease Shirley, because he's cautious by nature, and believed he had all the time in the world.
"All cheating has done is gotten more sides to do it."

Found your consequence. Erfworld is breaking. Everything is going wrong. That has been the main thrust of the story.
Banjooie wrote:
"All cheating has done is gotten more sides to do it."

Found your consequence. Erfworld is breaking. Everything is going wrong. That has been the main thrust of the story.


Well, is understandable, if you find someone cheating AND there's nothing punishing him for cheating... is that really a "cheat" or an undiscovered feature?

It's the thing about staying competitive, some people ruthlessly will try to get a hold of anything that gives him/her an edge as long as they have no consecuences for using it. and recall this is WAR and in war you don't want fair fights at all, you want to curbstomp the opposing party to reduce your loses.
"Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."
SilverSoul wrote:
I think here we have an example of the road to Fate being harder than was necessary. Marie had a plan that would, presumably, have gotten Wanda out of danger to FAQ. Jillian rejects it out of hand because she hates fate. So now something worse happens: Wanda croaks, Marie has to escape, and we take a much darker, alternate path to get there. This is probably the clearest rejection of a Fate plan we've yet seen, and I'm curious to see how Marie's vision gets fulfilled...and whether she herself will suffer for trying to enact it.

It strikes me as a fine example of why trying to hijack someone else's fate for your own, mad ends is a terrible idea. Marie tried to force Wanda's destiny unto the very easy way, the very, very hard way is happening as a result.

I mean, if not for Marie and the predictamancers, Wanda wouldn't have been in danger in the first place. Leaving aside her actions during the battle of portal park (she was blatantly working to arrange Wanda's capture in hindsight) and earlier, without her charge into ICFYS and the reactions to that, Wanda would simply have waltzed back to Spacerock without molestation.

And of course, Marie's plans failed before she ever stepped into ICFYS, as the arkenpliers were returned to Spacerock. Wanda would have been quite unable to decrypt anything had she turned to Faq. Never mind that those plans would have been hell for Wanda. She didn't want to live for an age and had given Gillian up for lost, Faq had nothing to offer her.

Neither Wanda, nor Gillian, would have had any reason to do the things Marie wanted them to do beyond her saying they should do them. And that was always going to be a serious problem. And a big warning sign that fate's being stretched to its limits.

Aion wrote:
I think y'all are underestimating Marie here, perhaps by a wide margin. Consider that she accurately planned her movements hundreds of turns in advance, down to the second for after she had been flippin' croaked and then decrypted. Now that is some wicked predictamancy!

And yet her attempts to persuade Queen Gill to do her bidding "because fate" went as well as anyone who knew her would have expected, in what universe was gambling everything on Gillian "I hate Fate" Zamussels agreeing to do something as it was destined ever a good idea? Oh and her machinations have left Wanda dead, what a masterstroke of forward planning that was.

For the record, I don't believe Marie is aware of anything that's happened or will happen beneath the bedrock.
The Great Minds blinding themselves came as a surprise you see. And that is what set those events in motion.
themunck wrote:
I'm gonna be honest, at this point I refuse to acknowledge the idea that cheating in Erfworld/annoying the Titans is a problem until we see some actual booping consequences. I accept that they might take some time to rear themselves like those of Parson killing someone under Truce did, but until they do that argument has no value. At least breaking a truce has an imaginable effect on how other players see GK. All cheating has done is gotten more sides to do it.
My sole point in responding to you was to get you to realize you were only focusing on the Temples' actions that painted them as negative to Jillian and Charlie but positive for GK and Caesar. I do agree with you on the cheating; my prediction with it was there will be a Temple-fueled cheating escalation that will have severe consequences down the line. I'm guessing that will be late next book.

themunck wrote:
Jed's actions helped GK immensely. Paying the juggle elves have given them an army loyal to the side rather than Wanda (or at least to the Ruler himself), while Stanley chilling in the spa have kept him out of Parson's hair.
The loyalty of the Decrypted has never once in this comic been shown to be a problem for GK, and Stanley has totally checked out. He's deferred nearly all of his autonomy to Parson and, if Jed had gotten his way with the portal, Stanley would have stormed the MK without an heir armed with a pole instead of the Arkenhammer.

themunck wrote:
Ignoring the bit about cheating, Huehue making those desicions still saved the side, when Charlie had their ruler in a death trap and they had no heir. Whatever the long term repercussions of those desicions, it is still infinitely better for TV than if he hadn't made them.
What saved TV from the death trap were Benjamin's actions. Otherwise there would have been a mass-transfer of troops and money to CC that would have left the side crippled. Huehue saved TV from collapsing as a side when Caesar killed himself to keep TV from falling into Charlie's hands.

themunck wrote:
Shirley has the power to give control of specific channels to Charlie. She could've just given him every channel except the garden one, while still letting him have his full abilities. And again, she arbitrarily prevented him from ending an enemy side because a caster who'd never sided with them might have slept with the enemy king. I say "might" because Shirley only guessed at that, they did not know. Jed and Huehue have both been what their sides needed so far. Shirley is nothing more than a ball and chain around Charlie's ankle.
Ansom already covered this; you've misremembered events. Shirley is better at scanning channels than Charlie and as of the next update has him back on every channel. I'm a bit unclear on why you're referring to Shirley as nothing but a burden when she literally repaired his custom wiring within the first 10 minutes of her life, restoring his shocked connection to the Dish. Then there's her forcing Charlie to address his customers to stop the bleeding instead of just gardening his brains out.

themunck wrote:
I don't have much more to add on Templeton. He just hasn't been showcased enough. But him siding with a caster of dubious loyalty over his own ruler on a hunch is not a good sign that he's going to be a boon to Jillian.
My impression is every Temple is a mixed blessing. You might recall I agreed with your original points before responding. You were right about the benefits and detriments, you merely ignored the detriments and benefits that evened them out.

themunck wrote:
Charlie, going into book 3, was an intimidating antagonist.
I'm still of the opinion Charlie and Jillian are the protagonists and the main antagonist is Fate/the game runner(s). I've argued Parson is an unwitting accomplice of the antagonist and Wanda is its slave. I believe this book is the turning point in the story where Fate shifted to being the primary antagonist in the form of Big Think and the Temples. Charlie did throw good archons after bad at Portal Park, but following that Charlie and Fate had a rapid escalation of game-immersion-breaking conflicts in a very short period of time.
Ansan Gotti wrote:
I think you're allowing your annoyance at the situation to color your recollection. Here's the page:

https://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/309

Shirley hesitantly mentioned how Charlie didn't say anything about Vanna's baby in the negotiations, and that's it. Charlie made his own decision to bend over backwards to appease Shirley, because he's cautious by nature, and believed he had all the time in the world.

The Unlurked wrote:
Too many things to quote

Fine, have some smuckers. Those were good counterarguments. I will say, however, that as an antagonist, Fate is incredibly uninteresting.
seanfish wrote:
Anomynous 167 wrote:
Indeed it is (a comedy of errors I meant). I am practicing writing imprecisely to try and make myself more persuasive (Scott Adams makes Trump sound so cool for his use of imprecise language as a tool of persuasion). At this stage I valued being imprecise even when I am fully capable of articulating myself better.

Probably not a wise decision in hindsight

(though I'll admit when I wrote "Furthermore, have you seen Templeton's face? He is a freaking looney. I feel like I'm having some trouble here explaining to everyone that stupid people do stupid things. Often without thinking. Because they are stupid.", I was at a bit of a loss for words describing what I meant, and opted for something that sounded clever.)


Also, given how I treat imprecise language as an art-form that I have clearly not mastered, I've really gotta stop saying "You know what I mean"


Respect for your moment honesty here but I seriously hope it's your committing to abandon rhetoric and coming back to discussion and not a reminder to yourself to really work harder on using imprecise language to bluff people into thinking what you want them to think.


Agreed. I enjoy your posts from time to time, Anomynous, you are like our Forum's version of Jack; but you can't be intentionally vague/ambiguous/imprecise and then be frustrated/upset when people don't understand your meaning. While it may be clever to read in books or see in media, when trying to get a point across to people it just doesn't work. Maybe take up writing a novel? No one will know what exactly is going on, believe in their own interpretation, and call it a masterpiece XD
Quote:
"Bless you, Templeton," said Marie.


ohhhhhhh, NOW I get it!