Book 3 - Page 341

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Book 3 - Page 341
Comic - Book 3 - Page 341
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Recent posts... (See full thread)
Jatopian wrote:
OneHugeTuck wrote:
I honestly don't know what to say to someone/anyone who feels that anything about a webcomic is a taxation upon their brainpower
This is an insult to webcomics in general, implying there's a low limit to their complexity.


LOL. No, it's implying that dumb people can't handle complexity.
Lipkin wrote:
Aaronax wrote:
Lipkin wrote:

But now that I've been staring closely at this thing, I may have noticed something else. Someone with a high rez image will have to confirm for me. On the top right angle of the "Caesar Borgata" shape, does anyone else see a little image of Caesar? Tiny, from the chest up. Looking like he did before he became Ruler. Jacket, shirt, head, blond hair. I'm more likely to be seeing things on this one.

I have no idea how to add a picture to this post, but I zoomed all the way in, and the pattern you (and me at first) thought was Caesar is just a continuation of the stained glass colouring from the right of the Caesar Borgata sign. What is interesting to me though, is the one red piece. Only one, like a heart, to the right of the image.

Bunny's closed eye necklace?

On my non-Tool low-res version I can only make out that the colors match Bunny's, which I only noticed after Lipkin pointed this out. No details.

So does this mean that Bunny's body was destroyed automagically? Are Don King and Roger in there too, somewhere? There's no blue or yellow in Bunny's color scheme. The blue and yellow in the shattered image does not feature in Don King's and Roger's color schemes. Don's shirt was a lighter blue, and had green in it. Both are missing in the image.

A number of the smaller fragments are multi-colored, but those seem to be primary colors: blue, yellow, red and the pale grey of -perhaps- Transylvito skin.

So I don't think it's the bodies. Something else is shattering here. Maybe Caesar's mind, but he seemed fairly together in the image that showed him upon his release.
I'll reply to all the replies in one:

I *LOVED* Erfworld. It was my favourite webcomic. Actually, it still is, because (at the risk of sounding too "get off my lawn!") all the other webcomics have gone downhill as well. OOTS is an exception, but it suffers from the same problem that Erfworld does: bloat. Serious, serious bloat.

It's almost as if the writers of the webcomic have found a golden goose and are going to ride it as long as they can.

And I swear to god, I don't mind them doing so; they have a great concept and deserve to be (richly!) rewarded. But they need to maintain a great concept; and running a limbo pattern isn't it.

In terms of having difficulties reading thousands of words, or complicated ideas...I honestly don't think this is what's going on here. I read. A *lot*. I also read sometimes extremely complicated stuff without having any difficulty comprehending the subject.

My issue is that I've read probably around 300,000 words in Erfworld since I've had any kind of idea just what the hell is going on. A large part of it has to do with the fact that the towers are VERY hard to follow, from a writer's standpoint, but the majority of the rest of it has to do with the fact that nothing is actually happening. Various plot elements have been introduced with no apparent purpose other than to drive the plot into ever-more complicated twists and turns with no real payoff at the end for the reader.

Look at a writer like Steve Brust who wrote the Vlad Taltos novels, and then for comparison, Robert Jordan. Steve Brust's writing comes in distinct packages---indeed they could be longer, but the writer there knows how to tell a story within the confines of the "narration rules" he has adopted--in fact, I would say a large part of his success as a story-teller comes from the fact that he puts writing restrictions on himself. This not only keeps him challenged (and interested) as an author, but helps him to keep the story fresh--again for him, which coincidentally keeps it fresh for the reader, despite the fact that he's written, like, 20+ books in the same world.

Robert Jordan, on the other hand, wrote in 4 million words what could have been written in 1 million. Basically everything past book 5, and significant tracts of books 3-5, could have been seriously pared down. It would have been a better story, from the standpoint of a writer's critique, and from the standpoint of the reader, who unfortunately had to engage in the equivalent of a marathon just to find out what happens to poor Rand Al'Thor.

The problem is bloat. Erfworld is bloated.

So let's talk about the other side of this argument now: the emotions. My emotions are that I feel disappointed that my favourite webcomic is suffering right now, and my original post reflected me trying to vent/express that frustration. The responses so far have mostly been fans devotedly coming to the defense of their beloved webcomic, and that's totally easy to understand when it's put like that.

So if my tone/original post was unnecessarily offensive, I'll own that--I apologize for upsetting people here.

But I think my original point still has merit. Erfworld is bloated.
With regard to the message quoted below, I'd like to make a couple of points.

The first one is a reminder that Rob's wife has taken ill, and that everything in Rob's life, including this comic, is secondary to him doing his best to help his wife's health be restored. Even if it means that his webcomic goes down in flames and that his primary source of income is irreparably damaged. Which is how it should be when two people have promised to take care of each other, in sickness and in health.

The second point is simply that even when Rob could dedicate his time to the webcomic full-time, he struggled with bloat. One of his traits has always been to take care of the details of the comic to the nth degree, and it has stalled the progress of the storyline on several occasions. It's part of his nature. Some people love that about his style, some people see it as an annoyance. But the main point I'm making here, is that even if Rob agreed that he could and should do something about it, until point one above is addressed, I would expect that it would be basically be a non-existent priority on his to-do list in the meantime.

Patience was part of appreciating the story before Rob had to deal with personal crises. Now it's true even more so than before.

To me, the fact that Rob has been able to keep up with the comic enough for people to forget what he's going through and offer constructive criticism about the story-telling format on the forums, is a testament to how well he's actually been able to keep up with this webcomic considering everything else that he's dealing with right now.

On a sidenote - seeing how I somehow survived reading through Terry Goodkind's Richard and Kahlan based novels (the entire Sword of Truth series and beyond), I think things in Erfworld would have to get a lot more bloated before I started feeling pained while reading about it. When Terry Goodkind started devoting about 9+ pages to describe one scene the characters were observing, now that REALLY tried my patience, and I'm pretty sure it somehow caused me real, physical pain, and raised my blood pressure.

Reading through one webcomic strip over the course of a few days while waiting for the next update has pretty much been a walk in the park compared to that ;).

Andjay wrote:
I'll reply to all the replies in one:

I *LOVED* Erfworld. It was my favourite webcomic. Actually, it still is, because (at the risk of sounding too "get off my lawn!") all the other webcomics have gone downhill as well. OOTS is an exception, but it suffers from the same problem that Erfworld does: bloat. Serious, serious bloat.

It's almost as if the writers of the webcomic have found a golden goose and are going to ride it as long as they can.

And I swear to god, I don't mind them doing so; they have a great concept and deserve to be (richly!) rewarded. But they need to maintain a great concept; and running a limbo pattern isn't it.

In terms of having difficulties reading thousands of words, or complicated ideas...I honestly don't think this is what's going on here. I read. A *lot*. I also read sometimes extremely complicated stuff without having any difficulty comprehending the subject.

My issue is that I've read probably around 300,000 words in Erfworld since I've had any kind of idea just what the hell is going on. A large part of it has to do with the fact that the towers are VERY hard to follow, from a writer's standpoint, but the majority of the rest of it has to do with the fact that nothing is actually happening. Various plot elements have been introduced with no apparent purpose other than to drive the plot into ever-more complicated twists and turns with no real payoff at the end for the reader.

Look at a writer like Steve Brust who wrote the Vlad Taltos novels, and then for comparison, Robert Jordan. Steve Brust's writing comes in distinct packages---indeed they could be longer, but the writer there knows how to tell a story within the confines of the "narration rules" he has adopted--in fact, I would say a large part of his success as a story-teller comes from the fact that he puts writing restrictions on himself. This not only keeps him challenged (and interested) as an author, but helps him to keep the story fresh--again for him, which coincidentally keeps it fresh for the reader, despite the fact that he's written, like, 20+ books in the same world.

Robert Jordan, on the other hand, wrote in 4 million words what could have been written in 1 million. Basically everything past book 5, and significant tracts of books 3-5, could have been seriously pared down. It would have been a better story, from the standpoint of a writer's critique, and from the standpoint of the reader, who unfortunately had to engage in the equivalent of a marathon just to find out what happens to poor Rand Al'Thor.

The problem is bloat. Erfworld is bloated.

So let's talk about the other side of this argument now: the emotions. My emotions are that I feel disappointed that my favourite webcomic is suffering right now, and my original post reflected me trying to vent/express that frustration. The responses so far have mostly been fans devotedly coming to the defense of their beloved webcomic, and that's totally easy to understand when it's put like that.

So if my tone/original post was unnecessarily offensive, I'll own that--I apologize for upsetting people here.

But I think my original point still has merit. Erfworld is bloated.
lloyd007 wrote:
I'd also say HueHue acted in good faith since the intention of the contract between GK and TV to screw over CC was signed off before this and adhered to by both sides and as such the Source enforced that contract before this one.
Calling it good faith is stretching it. The conversation between him, Benjamin, and Skyy was basically him saying "all right, we need to trick them. Also, I cannot be aware of any tricks we're playing because I'm unable to lie to Shirley. Also, now that I have stated these facts, I am going to leave the room and stop listening to what you do and say for a while, and anything arrange during that time is entirely on you."

He knew perfectly well that they were going to cheat; that was the whole point. He just arranged things so he didn't know the exact nature of the cheat.
OneHugeTuck wrote:
Jatopian wrote:
OneHugeTuck wrote:
I honestly don't know what to say to someone/anyone who feels that anything about a webcomic is a taxation upon their brainpower
This is an insult to webcomics in general, implying there's a low limit to their complexity.
LOL. No, it's implying that dumb people can't handle complexity.
Nope.

There are two interpretations here:

  • Webcomics can't tell a complex enough story to tax a non-dumb person's brain

  • Stories themselves can't be complex enough to tax a non-dumb person's brain

The second one isn't specific to webcomics, at least, but it's even more absurd a position for you to take, so I wasn't considering it.
Andjay wrote:

So if my tone/original post was unnecessarily offensive, I'll own that--I apologize for upsetting people here.


If you've upset anyone, it's not because your post was offensive, but rather because it was an "I'm leaving" post. I don't know what the modern consensus is on posts declaring that they're leaving a place, but in all the forums I've ever known through many years, that's been pretty heavily looked down on.

I've been to this rodeo before: "I'm leaving" posts cause negative reactions, invite drama, and ultimately the person declaring that they're leaving comes back later. Usually to invite more drama. It also doesn't help your cause that 10% of everything you've ever posted here is you saying goodbye. I wouldn't even be happy about someone heavily invested in the community making a post like that, and they'd at least have a decent argument for doing it, given that people would note their absence.

You on the other hand are a lurker - and there's nothing wrong with that! But it does mean you have little to no reason for informing us of your departure except as a rhetorical tactic. If that wasn't your intention, then fine, but personally I'm not a fan of cheap tricks designed to get a rise out of people. There are better, more honest ways to present your critique.

And frankly this is a great community for tough debate, so you have little reason not to be straightforward here. There are staunch defenders and staunch critics of pretty much every aspect of this comic who post in every. single. update thread. Your discontent about the direction of the comic - far from being a threat to the community - would in fact be a welcome addition to the conversation. If you're willing to participate that is.

If on the other hand you really do want to leave, then I request that you simply do so and shut the hell up about it :P
greycat wrote:
The "Caesar Borgata" diamond-shaped sign is a reference to the famous vintage Las Vegas sign:
Spoiler: show
Image


At first I thought it might be a reference to Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas, but my crude findamancy suggests that CP never had such a sign -- just the city as a whole.

However, the font used for the word "Caesar" is definitely from Caesar's Palace in LV.
Image


Forgive me if this was already mentioned, but it seemed I forgot to hit submit while it was fresh and I went to sleep in the meantime...

You're missing another glaring casino reference in there too: The Borgata.

Spoiler: show
Image


And, this is probably pedantry speaking, it's "Caesars", with no apostrophe. (Too many bored evenings discussing casino minutae...) Whether it's Caesars AC or Caesars Palace is up in the air though, since it has elements of LV and AC.
Having a passing familiarity with De Saussure, I found this passage very entertaining.

That said, I like the notion that Erfworld is fundamentally an idealistic reality; i.e, all Erfworld is is a data structure wherein all the signamancy and so on are fluff. Ace with a hat is as much Ace as without a hat when it comes to real Erfworld physics (Ace moves so and so within his allotted moves, his loyalty moves so and so without the narrative, etc).

For the "signs":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signified_and_signifier
Jatopian wrote:
Nope.

There are two interpretations here:

  • Webcomics can't tell a complex enough story to tax a non-dumb person's brain

  • Stories themselves can't be complex enough to tax a non-dumb person's brain

The second one isn't specific to webcomics, at least, but it's even more absurd a position for you to take, so I wasn't considering it.



Ok, you're not dumb but webcomics tax your brain. Got it.

Alternatively: Ok, smart people can have their brains taxed by webcomics. Got it.

I guess I'm just a genius then. My apologies for making blanket statements, I was underestimating myself.