Book 3 - Page 316

On the Carny circuit

Book 3 - Page 316
Comic - Book 3 - Page 316
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easter wrote:
I mean.. part of the problem here is that we are still not entirely sure what actually happened in Jill's head. Book 0 remains unfinished and the cliffhanger is Jillian's POV of her mind getting ripped apart. Which leaves the both of us free to fill in the blanks however supports our narrative of Charlie.


I feel like this is a cop-out because what we saw him do is indefensible regardless of context, but that's just my opinion.

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BUT... The original Deal of a Lifetime was not brain surgery. It was a magic contract that was unbreakable. Jillian refused to sign it which led to Charlie offering heroine buds. Jillian then refused that when Charlie wouldn't tell her why he still had buds (Answer: he was addicted to them). Charlie then doubled down on offering her buds when Wanda started dying from withdrawal. Jillian figured out Charlie was addicited and decided to sign the DOAL if Charlie cured Wanda (not Jillian AND Wanda, just Wanda) of addiction. Jillian could do this because she, unlike Wanda, wasn't dying. But Jillian went back on that and after Charlie cured Wanda, she changed the deal and made herself getting cured part of it.

Jillian could have accepted the DOAL at any time and not had Charlie get in her head and fuck her up. She MADE him go into her head and fuck it up for her own benefit as a move to give herself leverage over him. So no. I don't think you can say his plan from day 1 was to get in her head because his plan from day 1 literally wasn't to get in her head.


All of this is a smokescreen. Charlie does not change goals, he changes tactics on how to get there. He'd always planned to do what he did, though initially he'd planned a much longer game until her brute-force rejection of his subtlety got him to, by all appearances, concede to her. In reality that concession ended up getting him where he really wanted, and faster.
neko wrote:
So should we add "Charlie" and/or broader Erfworld morality discussions to the list of things we talk about after pg 10? "Jillian" is a constant, but "Contract" seems to be less and less relevant and will soon need a replacement topic.

:D


I vote for restricting morality issues, good vs evil, etc., until after page 10! :)
Kismet wrote:
All of this is a smokescreen. Charlie does not change goals, he changes tactics on how to get there. He'd always planned to do what he did, though initially he'd planned a much longer game until her brute-force rejection of his subtlety got him to, by all appearances, concede to her. In reality that concession ended up getting him where he really wanted, and faster.

That is pure conjecture on your part. We don't know enough about Charlie's goals or what he did to Jillian to say that what he did was always his plan. You can say Charlie doesn't change goals, just tactics, but you have no evidence to support the idea that Whammying Jill was one of his goals rather than one of tactics. His goal seemed to be "make sure nobody can reveal my backstory or weakness to anyone". This is 100% in line with what we know about him. Controlling information particularly about himself is one of his top priorities. The tactics he could have used to accomplish this included having Jillian sign the DOAL (like he did for literally everyone else including Wanda) or by making her incapable knowing that information because she had repeatedly refused to sign the DOAL even after she had agreed to sign it if he cured Wanda and he cured Wanda. Charlie very well could have just not trusted her to uphold her end of the bargain again after he finished curing her so he took proactive measures.
easter wrote:
That is pure conjecture on your part.


Of courshe!

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His goal seemed to be "make sure nobody can reveal my backstory or weakness to anyone".


As for what his goal seemed to be, that's often not what his goals really are based on what we've seen from him, right? And if this was his only goal, then why did he end up doing what he did? Just... pique? That alternative is even more terrible. What he did to Jillian was evil, no matter how you spin it.
Metallicat wrote:
Lipkin wrote:
In a universe where magic literally exists, magical thinking is the only logical way of thought.


It can still be wrong, using our world's definition of magical thinking. Just because one thing happens after you do another thing, doesn't mean that the first was caused by the second.

Coincidence and superstition still apply in Erfworld. Casters know what happens when they do magic but can be clueless about why it happens.
They debate among themselves, but so far don't seem to have developed a true systematic theory or process to explain magic.

The Great Minds were trying, but Parson shows a much better grasp of scientific experimentation needed to actually prove their ideas.

I ran an RPG once where magical thinking was the basis of magic. It was hard for the players not to give up and use logic, or just repeat any spell which worked without grasping the ways it could be tweaked by using a magical, illogical application of imagination.

Erfworld doesn't seem to apply the associative theory of magic, except in the references used for magic words. No classic voodoo doll mind control or pin torture.

Still, have to wonder if that sort of thing is possible if a caster can stretch their imagination a bit. Being popped with all your basic education makes it hard to innovate.

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Kismet wrote:
All of this is a smokescreen. Charlie does not change goals, he changes tactics on how to get there. He'd always planned to do what he did, though initially he'd planned a much longer game until her brute-force rejection of his subtlety got him to, by all appearances, concede to her. In reality that concession ended up getting him where he really wanted, and faster.


When you're working for Charlescomm, you'll learn. We prefer to play games that don't even contain a losing outcome. -Charlie
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His goal seemed to be "make sure nobody can reveal my backstory or weakness to anyone".


As for what his goal seemed to be, that's often not what his goals really are based on what we've seen from him, right? And if this was his only goal, then why did he end up doing what he did? Just... pique? That alternative is even more terrible. What he did to Jillian was evil, no matter how you spin it.
Like I said. To ensure she didn't welch on the deal again. He had completed 100% of the agreement required to get her to sign the DOAL and she responded by saying "No. I won't sign. Burn your garden and cure me first" If she's going to do that then let him into her head to erase some of her memories (erasing her memories of what being on the heroine buds was like was part of the treatment)... yeah. He's going to erase all her memories of him while he's at it. He would be stupid not to.

And no, I don't agree that what he did to her was evil. Unpleasant and disturbing? Yeah. Obviously. Brain surgery on an awake patient always will be. But she was freaking out and fighting back even before he was done doing the job he went there to do. The treatment was just incredibly unpleasant and traumatizing. Getting over a drug addiction always is. Jillian had to suffer and lose part of herself to be cured of the addiction. She AGREED to lose part of herself and knew it wasn't going to be pleasant going in. So the big bad thing Charlie did wasn't taking part of her and making her suffer. Because that was the plan she consented to. The only evil thing he did was take more than she thought he would which... honestly? I can't really get misty eyed for her regarding.
Let's look at an analogy here.

You have a tumor. You go to the hospital for surgery, to have it removed. You've signed a contract saying they can remove the tumor, but you know there are risks.

Then, while you're under anesthesia, the surgeon removes your tumor. But they also remove a kidney, because they never liked them. Then they let their medical students come and take out whatever they want, so the medical students remove a few ribs! And then they give you an intravenous alcohol injection, so you won't be able to remember anything in the last few hours, including agreeing to the surgery in the first place.

Well.

That's pretty evil, isn't it?
Null wrote:
Let's look at an analogy here.

You have a tumor. You go to the hospital for surgery, to have it removed. You've signed a contract saying they can remove the tumor, but you know there are risks.

Then, while you're under anesthesia, the surgeon removes your tumor. But they also remove a kidney, because they never liked them. Then they let their medical students come and take out whatever they want, so the medical students remove a few ribs! And then they give you an intravenous alcohol injection, so you won't be able to remember anything in the last few hours, including agreeing to the surgery in the first place.

Well.

That's pretty evil, isn't it?
In our world? Yes. In Erfworld, a zero sum game where murdering your neighbor is the order of the day required to survive? Not really. The surgeon in this analogy is an enemy leader who is making a truce with you that you've already reneged on once. Like... letting an enemy caster do ANYTHING in your brain is a bad move at the best of times. Letting them do it immediately after you screwed them? That's war. If someone offers you a truce and everyone else in your country accepts except you, and then you screw the guy offering the truce and insist he go and rewrite your brain... I don't think he's evil for rewriting it in a way that benefits him. He's not good or noble for doing it but he's hardly evil. Especially when the medical student in question is HER healomancer, not his.
elecampane wrote:


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tunasammich wrote:
Addendum: I liked the "adult noises" that Charlie makes when imitating Jed.

You mean "wommp-womp-wahh"? I thougth that was "sad trombone" noises, kinda like this


Here's a clip of what I interpereted it as: The noise that adults make in Charlie Brown