Book 3 - Page 249

A room with a fugue

Book 3 - Page 249
Comic - Book 3 - Page 249
Recent posts... (See full thread)
The thing is that that's a weird bit of obscure trivia to know about Archons that they can help you lead dance fights, the most probable reason Ansom knows it was because he can dance fight and wanted to study how to integrate that skill better into his leader role.
Hero of Shadows wrote:
The thing is that that's a weird bit of obscure trivia to know about Archons that they can help you lead dance fights, the most probable reason Ansom knows it was because he can dance fight and wanted to study how to integrate that skill better into his leader role.

Whether Ansom himself could dance fight or not, he couldn't lead a dance fight. The Archons could.
I don't think we can actually conclude if Ansom can or cannot from that update.

The limitation on Ansom may have been the max stack limit on his troops he couldn't lead a mass-dance number like Wanda could with her uncroaked and so needed the Archon combo to match the bonus.

That being said I am not sure he has prepared for a dance fight in any of the other fights we have seen in him so he may not have the special.
CDS wrote:
I don't think we can actually conclude if Ansom can or cannot from that update.

The limitation on Ansom may have been the max stack limit on his troops he couldn't lead a mass-dance number like Wanda could with her uncroaked and so needed the Archon combo to match the bonus.

That being said I am not sure he has prepared for a dance fight in any of the other fights we have seen in him so he may not have the special.


You might be on to something, at the battle for Jetstone Wanda was in dance battle gear and Ansom was in his priest-collar armor (which doesn't look to me like it would give a bonus to dance fighting), although dekrypted Ansom should be able to dance fight because he counts as one of Wanda's uncroaked no ?
GrandVezir wrote:
Hero of Shadows wrote:
The thing is that that's a weird bit of obscure trivia to know about Archons that they can help you lead dance fights, the most probable reason Ansom knows it was because he can dance fight and wanted to study how to integrate that skill better into his leader role.

Whether Ansom himself could dance fight or not, he couldn't lead a dance fight. The Archons could.


So when Ansom was dancing on his carpet, he was just as much following the Archon's lead as his men on the ground ?

Then why wasn't he down with the troops using his bonus to mow down even more uncroaked ?

To be honest up until now my interpretation had always been that Ansom was "driving" and the Archons were relaying his commands in a way that allowed normal infantry to join in.

I'm not saying it's impossible for the Archons to lead, I think a important point is that music they were dancing to does it have a greater significance to Ansom's signamancy or to the Archon's signamancy ?
Hero of Shadows wrote:
Luitz wrote:
Hero of Shadows wrote:
Well the Casters loved her because she spared their lives, the Portal provided a perfect escape route with 0 risk of being intercepted by GK and captured/turned, mind you Bea could have kept them for the final stand but she didn't.

[...]

The fact that she refused to negotiate/ally with the enemy even when faced with death and the fact that she chose to sacrifice herself to prevent GK from cannibalising not even one more infantry unit was a huge boost to her reputation probably.

Rulers are a closed community there are things that they can meaningfully discuss only with their peers, within that community their behaviour matters King Nixon was hated even if he was royal for his Nixon-like behaviour, Bea needed only to have been decent herself and the other points I mentioned would have made her beloved.


Well, the thing is that even if you go thinking that it was a Noble "Heroic Sacrifice" to deny GK resources... it was also a Stupid decision.

Unaroyal was fighting and standing in a fortified position. This favours the defender because of the fortifications, traps, bonuses and such, as well as 4 casters. A fight for Unaroyal would not be a casualty-free affair for GK, and Bea has seen first hand that Decrypted can be Dusted. There's no Double Rez. Even if she thought she had no chance of victory, she could have sold her life dearly, inflicting losses on GK. Which would be recuperated by decrypting the fallen troops, sure... but if the defense was led competently, it's likely that she could have inflicted more losses than she took, essentially losing her 2000 to kill a 2010 of GK... sure, Wanda would decrypt her 2,000, but the 2,010 Decrypted would be gone for good.

Of course, the Decrypted Casters would probably be worth it, but... you don't need them to fight until the end. Evacuate them as soon as they're out of juice or it looks like the position is to be overrun, with the same promise as before and the like. There, you've inflicted extra damage and denied the enemy the assets at the same time.

Moreover, given that Bea had a connection to RVC, he could have asked him to come with a moneymancer ASAP (assuming Don couldn't do that with Benjamin in the first place) and converted her treasury into a Jewel to send to Don, Slately and her other anti-GK penpals, instead of using it to upgrade Garrison to Field.

Wow, the more I look into her the more I hate her.


While I do agree with you that fighting to the end and making the enemy bleed is best in most cases, here we have to take into account the strengths and weaknesses of each side

GK strengths:
1) top tier army (their pick of the first RCC army plus maybe a few dragons from Stanley)
2) top tier bonuses (Ansom a Level 10 CW who would be in the hex plus Wanda who can lend a caster bonus to most of the troops in the army)
3) top tier leadership (Ansom,Wanda and Parson all combining their genius and experience)
4) top tier information (they have the most recent CW of the enemy on their side now)

UR weaknesses:
1) depleted army
2) lost heir and CW
3) lost runner up best CW
4) zero secrets with the last CW having been converted

If the fight was going to be in someone's favor it would have been GK's Bea actually managed both not add any more soldiers to GK's army and provide the RCC with critical information (Dekrypted can be considered turned versions of their alive selves with all the memories and skills plus a fantastical devotion to Wanda and if dusted they can't be brought back).

Like Ansom said about the campaign Unroyal fought them completely wrong either they should have gone all out on the offensive when GK first entered their territory or they should have retreated from every city and make a final stand at the capitol with all their forces.

I guess their strategy had been to bleed them through a series of medium/small skirmishes not knowing that GK had such bonuses and could harvest their dead.

Because the mechanics of dekryption were not known all that Unaroyal did was feed GK's army.


Unaroyal was going down in the final capital fight. There didn't seem to be time to try to pull the forces from the other cities in order to make a huge grand last stand. And even if they did, GK had such a huge power advantage at that point that they were going to gain more new decrypted soldiers than they lost.

In addition, all the forces at every other city which couldn't get into the fight would also be claimed for GK. Rather than leaving them all to be harvested as decrypted, Bea disbanded all of them by her actions. Thus, no gain in forces for GK.

It probably would have made little difference in the long run without Charlie. Wanda and Ansom were ready to roll over Spacerock and croak Slately. He would have been left with a similar choice, with no heir remaining. Charlie stepped in by paying enough for dusted Archons to promote Tramennis, but even that wouldn't have saved the city and all the forces within, without the turn ending spell.

Had Bea stayed and fought, a lot more of GK's forces would be decrypted Unaroyal, they'd have had even more troops to take Spacerock with -- perhaps enough to open up another front or just encircle the city leaving no escape -- and more of them would be high level. If they managed to get any casters, that would be an even bigger benefit, but even without that, they'd have gained considerable power from the fight.

Plus have more cities to capture and convert, rather than rebuilding from scratch. All in all, the scorched erf method was about the only way that Unaroyal could actually hurt GK at that point.
I think the barrier is more whether the troops being led can dance fight. Dance-fighting would seem to correspond to the kind of phalanx/testudo/etc. formation fighting which was a strong feature of several ancient empires (and recognizably influenced military tactics up through the development of repeating rifles) but is counterintuitive and requires strict training.

You can't just take a guy who knows how a phalanx works and put him in front of a bunch of guys who don't and have that magically turn them into a phalanx. Same for square/column/rank formations of musketmen facing off against various threats from cavalry and such, the people you're giving those kind of orders have to already know how to follow them...or have some kind of Rhyme-o-mancy available to get them in step with everyone else.

That's what the DDR spell apparently did, Ansom looked like he already knew how to lead it, the spell was to get all the other troops in step. Either way, it's apparent that decrypted are able to dance-fight under Wanda's lead.
Chiu ChunLing wrote:
I think the barrier is more whether the troops being led can dance fight. Dance-fighting would seem to correspond to the kind of phalanx/testudo/etc. formation fighting which was a strong feature of several ancient empires (and recognizably influenced military tactics up through the development of repeating rifles) but is counterintuitive and requires strict training.

You can't just take a guy who knows how a phalanx works and put him in front of a bunch of guys who don't and have that magically turn them into a phalanx. Same for square/column/rank formations of musketmen facing off against various threats from cavalry and such, the people you're giving those kind of orders have to already know how to follow them...or have some kind of Rhyme-o-mancy available to get them in step with everyone else.

That's what the DDR spell apparently did, Ansom looked like he already knew how to lead it, the spell was to get all the other troops in step. Either way, it's apparent that decrypted are able to dance-fight under Wanda's lead.

Props to you for the historical reference. The concept of dance fighting makes more sense if you just class ot under the vague concept of formation fighting and toss in the "non-threatening" required by Stanley when Wanda cast the Summon Perfect Warlord spell.
Metallicat wrote:


Unaroyal was going down in the final capital fight. There didn't seem to be time to try to pull the forces from the other cities in order to make a huge grand last stand. And even if they did, GK had such a huge power advantage at that point that they were going to gain more new decrypted soldiers than they lost.

In addition, all the forces at every other city which couldn't get into the fight would also be claimed for GK. Rather than leaving them all to be harvested as decrypted, Bea disbanded all of them by her actions. Thus, no gain in forces for GK.
(snip)
Plus have more cities to capture and convert, rather than rebuilding from scratch. All in all, the scorched erf method was about the only way that Unaroyal could actually hurt GK at that point.


I completely agree with the analysis. GK was using the tactic of stacking bonuses on bonuses and relying heavily on leadership. GK's bonuses would significantly higher than Unaroyal's in every fight--and having higher bonuses means more of your guys survive while more of the enemy croaks. GK was bringing +18, and I doubt if Unaroyal had any combination of warlords on the whole side to add up to +18.

They were gonna lose hard, and would have just given a lot more units to GK's side, had they fought to inflict damage. Now--Bea could have given away her treasury in gems or whatever, but denying GK her troops was a good move for the anti-GK coalition. GK doesn't take new units, so GK has to either raze the cities it captures or leave them defended with units it already owns--thus making it's attack force smaller and weaker.
tadthornhill wrote:
The concept of dance fighting makes more sense if you just class ot under the vague concept of formation fighting and toss in the "non-threatening" required by Stanley when Wanda cast the Summon Perfect Warlord spell.
Oh man, that's probably a longstanding thing on the forums but I honestly never once connected any of Erfworld's booped and Bowdlerized Signamancy in Parson's eyes to Stanley's specification that "everything should seem familiar and safe to him." Because the actual result is the the entire world is made of crazy surprises.

Stanley, we truly owe you so much.

P.S. I mean, those particular words just slid right past my filter when I read that page. Everything else was obviously funny, related to the Stupidworld exposition. I already knew we owed Stanley a lot, but for "seem familiar and safe" we must acknowledge gratitude.