Book 3 - Page 235

Spot check, listen check, gut check

Book 3 - Page 235
Comic - Book 3 - Page 235
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Placing small dirtamancy traps on arrows/bolts is definitely worth a look.

However, my impression is that the big advantage of guns wouldn't just be raw damage (though that is certainly one of their advantages in Stupidworld) but also range and accuracy for even low-level units...as long as they had the proper knowledge of how to use one. Inherent precision of a rifle is usually measured in MOA (minutes of angle, or a sixtieth of a degree) and direct fire range for an AR type 5.56/.223 is out to 300 yards before sight adjustments must be made...indirect fire is out to 800 yards with a rear sight/post adjustment. Bows and crossbows sighting systems and inherent precision and their direct fire range is harder to quantify numerically but cannot approach this. Also, rate of fire, lock-time, and ease of use mean novices can get on target more reliably with a rifle than even reasonably experienced archers can (call the standard a four inch diameter group at 50 yards, once the rifle is zeroed this is easy for a novice shooter, pretty good for an experienced archer, while a foot at 100 yards is still easy for a novice shooter, but nearly impossible for even an expert archer--approaching indirect fire range). This is especially true when you consider that arrows and bolts are inherently possible to dodge or deflect at such ranges, bullets from firearms are not.

In short, while increasing the raw damage inflicted by a given shot is significant (rifle bullets can be a couple of orders of magnitude more energetic than arrows, though 5.56/.223 is on the low end), a solid hit in a vital area from a broadhead will kill handily. But metal plate, scale, or chain will stop or deflect bolts and arrows, while a bullet will go right through anything light enough to wear unless it is advanced materials (the penetration is like a pickaxe swung two-handed by what I would presume would count as a heavy unit in Erf). Wind and drop are simply not as great a concern for bullets as for arrows inside of 100 yards.

And even bolt/lever action rifles can fire at rates of dozens of shots a minute with minimum disruption of target acquisition. Semi-autos (which the Erfworld AR clones seem to be) can fire as fast as the trigger can be pulled, with no disruption of target acquisition. This further increases the per-shot accuracy for multiple shots.

So the damage increase is just overkill, the real advantage is hit rate (both per shot and absolute) and negation of any armor/dodge saves. We haven't yet seen a situation where the range advantage really tells (partly cause an Erfworlder at 300 yards would be a stray ink line in the comic) but it is another thing that can't really be replicated by adapted archery.

Once Parson gets back in action, there are things working guns can do that are just not realistic with anything else. Like coming up to a hex boundary on your turn and basically wiping out an enemy force in the next hex without even letting them have any return fire before you advance into their hex...especially if you have flying units.
Sir Dr D wrote:
As in what if he changed his clothing to look like a G.I. Joe soldier.


:) dagnabbit, wish I had thought of that.

Sir Dr D wrote:

Or maybe Ace cannot allow living units to fight with a gun, but he could create an army of G.I. Joe dolls armed with rifles.


I think G.I.Joe wasn't much chop in the shooting stakes, never saw him hit a target once !. :lol:
HighJumper wrote:
Crisis21 wrote:

HighJumper: For all the people speculating about gaining specials or abilities, I think you should read the take Spicymancer outlines in his excellent Hungry Jungle works. In the second installment there's a whole area of a city designated for training up warlords in the Dance Fighting special, according to some of the rules theorized above.

Crisis21:I have indeed read that. I've taken a few cues from the instruction it shows in my speculation.

HighJumper: Well, then, cite your source, and I won't have to. I'm personally taking Spicymancer's representation as canon until proved otherwise.

Crisis 21: I'm considering it that as well, however as a fan work it does not any sort of authority. Only plausibility. As it has no official canonicity, I did not feel comfortable citing it as if it were.


I didn't either. That's why I said it was a take rather than canon, and described even the comparison to canon as my personal view, while I gave credit where credit was due. If I got an idea from someone else, I prefer to note that, so people don't mistake it as my own, and can go look up more detail if they feel like it.


If I was using it as a specific example, then I might. However, since I was debating generalities over whether or not the mechanic was possible in canon, citing a fanfic for what was, at best, tangential inspiration, really didn't seem appropriate.
If the following has been mentioned already please ignore me :)

The Spell that Maria cast was to free Wanda at a distance

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nino_Pecoraro
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusapia_Palladino

Two mediums "able to" affect things at a distance and free them selves.
Tonot wrote:
Sir Dr D wrote:
As in what if he changed his clothing to look like a G.I. Joe soldier.


:) dagnabbit, wish I had thought of that.

Sir Dr D wrote:

Or maybe Ace cannot allow living units to fight with a gun, but he could create an army of G.I. Joe dolls armed with rifles.


I think G.I.Joe wasn't much chop in the shooting stakes, never saw him hit a target once !. :lol:



So what you are saying, is having a unit look like G.I. Joe, will have as much effect as having them look like a storm trooper? :lol:
Nikolai II wrote:
Commoble wrote:


No, he's just a dude.


I read it as a reference to the "Not a Villain" webcomic. http://www.navcomic.com and the character Dude (real name Brandon), the Cardista. (Kind of a summoner.)


And I think you're right! Shumuckers to you for showing me this very good webcomic!
greycat wrote:
Crisis21 wrote:

Speculation:

[...] After all, why spend dozens, or even hundreds, of turns trying to gain an Archery special when your ruler can just pop a bunch of archer units?

Since units pop with so much relevant knowledge they didn't earn the hard way, I doubt many would see the merits of trying to train skills they weren't popped with. After all, if the Titans meant for them to do something, they'd have popped with that special, right? As such, there is a distinct lack of any drive to learn among most units, regardless of their popped intellect, and more than that there appears to be a complete lack of competent instructors to teach skills a unit does not possess natural talent for.


My own speculation is that a unit cannot learn a new Special without magical intervention.


Possible counterexample: Archons have varied specials from a set, and seem to gain additional specials as they level up.

I'll also note, it's possible to level up through training. I've previously speculated that units might be able to gain a special (with some probability) by spending sufficient time to level up training in a special they currently lack. Of course, since leveling up by sheer dint of training is a drag, even if it were possible doing it with expensive bullets to gain the "Archery Specialist: Pistol" (or Rifle) would be prohibitive in terms of time and juice.

Testing this theory would be less expensive using six stacks of fresh-popped stabbers and a pile of throwing bricks trying to acquire "Archery Specialist: Brick". It would be cheaper still (and vastly faster) for Parson to test it by asking his Mathamancy bracer what the chance of it working would be.
Yeah, once they rescue Wanda Parson's bracer is going to have a HUGE backlog of calculations to do so as to clarify their overall strategy.

It would help a lot if Marie, Ivan, and Claud come out of this intact. From a narrative perspective I don't see how they wouldn't, Ivan and Claud could have been allowed to depop if they were just going to die (or be trapped forever) under bedrock.
abb3w wrote:
Possible counterexample: Archons have varied specials from a set, and seem to gain additional specials as they level up.
I'd argue that Archons actually indicate the opposite: That they gain further specials at all is something Archon-specific, and it's restricted to a limited list of specials.

So, only some unit types can learn additional specials, but even then only a few unit-specific ones, not just any special. Archery Special: Gun/Pistol/Rifle is on no units' list, so no unit could pop or otherwise gain it.


At least that's my take on it, there's no canon one way or another concerning it so far.
Well, we know that archons can gain specials from leveling, but we don't know that this is unique to archons. It's worth mentioning particularly, so it is probably unusual compared to most other units. But we know that casters can level and gain competencies outside of their core discipline, it seems the leadership special can be conferred by appointment to warlord/lady status, but perhaps it has to already be gained by leveling.

One interesting thought I've been having is that the various civilian buildings that a warlord or courtier can 'manage' might be upgraded in a manner similar to what was done with Jed. I was thinking of upgrading a smithy or whatever to make guns automatically, or the bank to allow it to carry out most routine moneymancy for a side, but the limitations on what cities can pop you mentioned make me wonder if there isn't something you could upgrade to allow a city to pop additional new unit types as well.

Like, maybe parson could pick out a likely looking building and have a link work on it to allow the city to pop redneck militia or something. Just hope they aren't all rebs...that could get sticky.