Book 3 - Page 87

Book 3 - Page 87
Comic - Book 3 - Page 87
Recent posts... (See full thread)
Kerrus wrote:

That said I will note that the signamancy of a group is very important on Erf, and Carnies in particular have a particular appearance to them that is, shall we say, similar to the appearance of another group we've encountered recently.

Specifically, the Juggle Elves.
:?:

How so? I don't see it.

Which is not to say that the Juggles might not have access to any particular 'mancy; they clearly have a wide range of abilities among them. But I don't see the similarity in signamancy. Can you give an example?
Kerrus wrote:
I suspect that the real trick behind Carnymancy is it can only affect you through things you're subconsciously willing to accept are or may be possible, and that it can temporarily shift that belief from 'that might be possible' to 'that's how it works'.

Personally I suspect that the reason Parson could get through the portal to MK has nothing to do with carnymancy, and is more than likely actually because he's a human and may not actually be totally bound by erf rules (such as being able to act out of turn order).

The whole volcano example Parson used doesn't really hold water if Carnymancy has to start with something you already believe in. You don't believe you're immune to lava, and you don't believe that you could be- at least not with some other effect (which defeats the purpose).

if Carnymancy lets you break the setting rules, it does so because its casters are able to believe that those rules can be changed. Their limits limit the effects they can generate, and limit how much those rules can be changed. I suspect that Carnymancers are particularly sensitive to the Fate axis, given that their changes tend to swing back on them- a karmic return of sorts that prevents them from just taking over the world.

However... being limited to what the initial caster believes is possible opens a potential loophole. Aside from getting their mitts on an Arkentool like Charlie did, if you linked a Carnymancer with a Foolamancer it might be possible to temporarily change what the initial caster is able to accept as possible and open up the ability to significantly change things. Charlie probably knows that too, and the ones most directly suited to countering his actions would be other Carnymancers, so that probably explains one of the reasons he's keeping them all in his pocket.


That said I will note that the signamancy of a group is very important on Erf, and Carnies in particular have a particular appearance to them that is, shall we say, similar to the appearance of another group we've encountered recently.

Specifically, the Juggle Elves. It would be interesting if the naturally popped juggle elves had some sort of innate carnymancy effect.


Some other body did mention that it could be that some of the principles that run Erfworld can, in a sense, "believe" things and that Carnymancy can alter their beliefs. The strongest evidence for this is how Maggie-Sizemore-Ace animated the tower of Spacerock.

That is however, is exceedingly bizarre. That's closer to an analogy of belief than anything. It's not as if the Jed the Head was sentient before the linkup was used to make him. So it's strange to say that such things have "beliefs" about how reality operates.
As far as life expectancy you have a few forces at work. Fear and love can both go in the same direction. Faith brings wellbeing, which can promote health. Fear of death/hell can motivate healthy lifestyle choices. Faith can also shorten life if that person's sense of purpose has already been achieved and they don't fear their life physical life ending (dealing with Erfworld's belief in Fate). The faithless can also have a shorter life if they feel they have no purpose. Self loathing and poor self esteem drive those to favor ending their own pain, but not always. There's a push/pull with both belief systems. And yes both groups don't have polar extremes and can often mix beliefs in both directions.

As a Christian, faith can motivate you to make good choices also. Being saved, or forgiven of all wrong doings can encourage poor choices, or it can motivate one to live up to a new standards through gratitude. You're able to love and forgive others because you received greater love forgiveness yourself at no cost. But that isn't the end of what it can do either.
Citric Thoughts wrote:
Perhaps carnymancy's power is not in altering your belief in reality, but rather realities belief in YOU.
Both, I think.

DVL wrote:
It's not as if the Jed the Head was sentient before the linkup was used to make him. So it's strange to say that such things have "beliefs" about how reality operates.
Not just Jed:
Guynietoren wrote:
Erfrworlders are popped knowing or believing what certain rules are.
So rather than it all being formed from scratch every time, it seems more logical (at least more efficient) that the knowledge, beliefs and faith are drawn from a common pool - which itself may be dormant or as slow as a tree.

Beeskee wrote:
So, Thinkamancer x Foolamancer x Carnymancer = turn someone into an Erfworld god?
Parson MAY perhaps cross hex boundaries off-turn, after all (with casters' aid the first time). Just best not to shout "I am invincibool!!!", there is no helping one there.

Citric Thoughts wrote:
Perhaps that's how the scroll works as well. It convinces reality that you're a caster with juice.
Or that your being there *is* wrong enough to bother expelling you, after all.

About more caster linkups: Weirdomancy is not something suitable for theory alone, and Stanley may not be open to the idea of "just testing things for big Schmuckers" after Jed, yet. Some other side might, though, and get an inexperienced Anythingomancer for the price of a Thinkamancer and Weirdomancer.
If, as I and many others suspect, Charlie is a Stupidworlder like Parson, then any speculation about his Parson's "Omnimancy" or ability to break the rules applies to Charlie as well (though it is possible that Charlie's "healing" from the buds has reduced his abilities in some way). It seems odd that someone from our world would neatly slot in as a member of a certain discipline, so Charlie (and Parson) may go the "Avatar" route and not be limited as to which disciplines they can use.
Janis' comments make it sound like if you don't believe in the rules, you can do anything like in the matrix. I don't think that is accurate. But I don't think she is wrong either. She just has incomplete information. But I do believe now that many erfworld rules are not enforced by erfworld itself but by all individual entities.

If you think of Erfworld in terms of a computer simulation, it would be like a mmorpg where processing is shared among all the players computers. When a player has their character jump, their individual computer determines how hi the jump is. If they hit an uncrossable boundary, it is the users computer, and not the server, that prevents the character from moving forward. And if an arrow is shot at them, it is the users computer that looks at the roll made for the arrow and determines the outcome, and broadcasts the outcome to other computers. Carnymancy then is like hacking. It would be like a hacker changes a rule on an individual computer, causing that character to jump higher then he should, be able to walk through a boundary, or have the arrow not damage him.

Or if erfwrold was in the matrix, it means that instead of humans being used for batterys, their brains are used for part of the processing. It would turn everything into a neural network, with everyones minds contributing to outcomes under a large constraint of rules. I think the poster who said Janis really meant 'instincts' is correct. Parsons headache was a result of his mind being reprogrammed with rules. This is at the subconscious level. Like the parts that control walking and balance, and interpreting language. It is these subconscious rules that prevent Parson from walking through a hex boundary, and not an erfworld force.

But I don't think a person can go full Neo, by realizing these rules are just illusonary constructs. People are still bound by them, and cannot deliberately disobey a rule. Carnymancy allows people to go against rules, by making them believe at a subconscious level that the rule has changed. So it is related to a persons belief, but still requires a Carnymancy spell. Changing some rules takes more time and juice. It is similar to reprogramming a rule for a particular person.
Here are some other random thoughts on the subject:
- A carnymancy can not change rules with him or her self. Part of the magic is fooling people that a rule changed, and they cannot fool themselves
- Kingsworld worked, by convincing Slately that his turn had begun.
- Charlie is putting on a show. In other words he is not as powerfull as he makes everyone believe, and all his acts have taken carefull planning. Knowing a single carnymancer spell can effecta single person at a time, and requires touch (even if touch through a linked caster is allowed) will make him a lot easier to beat.
- This internal belief system also explains a lot of other things about erfworld. A person believing they have to be loyal to a ruler, is similar to their believe they cannot walk through a hex boundary.
- It explains Signamancy. Belief = reality
- Predictamncy works because people believe it must. A predictamancers prediction is seen as just as much of a hard and fast rule as not being able to move off turn. So all of erfworld subconsciously works towards making the prediction come true.
I just noticed. Maggie was supposed to check i with Stanley, but we did not see the reults.
Mad Humanist wrote:
I just noticed. Maggie was supposed to check i with Stanley, but we did not see the reults.

She forgot, because she was having too much fun stomping grapes. And giggling about Parson. Bad Maggie!
And trying on dresses apparently.
The comic isn't always strictly chronological, especially where Klogs/notes are concerned. It's possible that in the timeline, Maggie has indeed already contacted Stanley before this image, but the content of that conversation is more relevant to a future post, likely from Stanley's perspective once we cut back to his thread.

Or she's Flaking thanks to Hippiemancy.