Book 3 - Page 85

“I had been wondering what sort of a King you would make.”

Book 3 - Page 85
Comic - Book 3 - Page 85
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CelebrenIthil wrote:

2. Why do you have the right to life when you are going to die someday? Them being temporary is not making them any less alive, or sentient. Especially if they are a double of a "permanent" unit, and not just a magical construct with no other frame of reference.
Imagine you wake up someday, with the exact same memories and personality and intelligence and feelings as you have now, but you learn you actually are a disposable copy of the real you, and you have one day to live. How would you feel about that?


Well, a better question is how would an *erfworlder* feel about that. There are several counterpoints to consider that might make them see it differently than we do.

1) Everyone croaks sometime. If you happen to wake up knowing that you'll depop at the end of the day, is that really more existentially threatening than knowing you'll depop at the end of the decade, or century?

The difference is that in Stupidworld, people's lifespans are typically, 50-100 years, and so of course it's terrifying if you know you'll die a lot earlier than you expect to. In Erfworld, there's probably plenty of units with single-turn lifespans. Stacks popped in the middle of a heated war may be sent off to battle immediately, same turn - not that common, but certainly not unheard of.

2) What you expect to do in your lifetime. In stupidworld, if you find out you've got one day to live, that's terrifying - you haven't had a chance to have kids or grandkids, haven't had a chance to provide for your loved ones, etc.

In Erfworld, units feel duty/loyalty towards their Side or their commanders. So the natural baseline of comparison is different - the question is what a unit was able to accomplish in their one day of clonehood, whether they were able to use it well and benefited their Side with the time they had.

Remember Wrigley's first incarnation. When he croaked, he wasn't sad because he was dying "before his time" - he was sad because he never got to fulfil his purpose as a stabber and stab someone. A clone will basically never be put in that position - they'll be created and immediately sent of to do whatever it is they're meant to do.

3) Units from a side that has a Dittomancer may simply be acclimated already. It's just a normal fact of life - some units have long lifespans, some are only around for a day to fulfil a specific mission. Those units around for a day to fulfil a specific purpose may very think "great, I just do that one mission, life is simple, let's go do it!"

Quote:

I would feel awful creating sentient units who have the mind of a person with a full life's potential*, but who are 100% doomed to a premature death.


The key may be that 1 day is not "premature" for a dittomancer's double - it's exactly how long they live, no more no less. It's not a sad fate for a stupidworlder to live 80, for a dog to live 15, or for a clone to live 1 day.

Quote:
If that doesn't sound like a crappy deal to you, then I don't know what else I can say.


It absolutely sounds like a crappy deal to me. But I'm a stupidworlder with my own biases about how life is supposed to be. The question is, does that sound like a crappy deal to Tramennis's clone or to Slately's clone or to whoever else is next? It's their point of view that matters here, not mine!

I'm trying to see it from their point of view, and the best way I have of finding out what their point of view is is by reading the comic. And neither Clonely nor Tramennis2 showed much existential despair, or anger at their creators. So trying to see it from their point of view, it makes much more sense to figure out why they behave/believe the way they do rather than trying to impose our own sensibilities on them.
Sir Dr D wrote:
Do we have any evidence that clones are not in fact the original person experiencing two different things simultaneously? And when the clone life cycle ends its memories merge with that of the original. The Slately clone was different only in that it did not have any original to merge back in with. But for all purposes it was Slately.

Seeing as Jetstone does not have any ethical issues in using clones, I am assuming that is how it works.


Like Naruto shadow clones. Based on Tramennis's reaction to the Slately clone, that isn't the case, but it could just be he wasn't sure that those memories would return to an already croaked Slately. Are you right? My gut says "maybe" as I can't hazard a guess. I just don't know.

@ftl The Slately clone seemed plenty upset about the reveal that he was the clone.
konradvm wrote:
Squall83 wrote:
Ok, I concur, because otherwise there wouldn't have been any parley. I would still like to hear Parson try to make this point if only to make a point Tramennis can counter-point.

Uh, parley? You mean that time when most of GK troops were already slaughtered and Ansom offered Parson to surrender instead of dying like hundreds of others? Very honourable.

Well, GK kept on fighting, so Ansom probably didn't think that there'd be interest in a surrender parley. Also Ansom didn't offer Parson to surrender, Parson made the offer.
@commander: Ah well shipping stuff to Canada gets expensive so I guess I haven't got much to do with my schmuckers except letting them pile up for a book order in the future, or giving them so somebody who's actually active and who will spread 'em around! :)

@ftl: You make good points about what makes an Erfworlder feel fulfilled about their life or not. I did think about the fact many of them might have a philosophy they can croak anytime, given the war-heavy nature of their world and purposes, but on the other hand, if they are not met with violence, they can go on living healthily for as long as they are useful to their side....
So there is potential there for hope and dreams and wishes for a continued existence.

I also considered, as you did, that maybe the clones think/feel much differently about their situation that I, a Stupidworlder, do. Only, with what little we know (i.e. mostly from Clonely), it doesn't seem so. I pondered on OneHugeTruck's response in bed yesterday and thought of the memory merger thing too – that I would feel very okay with! It'd be extremely neat to try. But again, no idea if that's what happens, we only have conjectures on that front. If we never learn more, then I personally wouldn't dare risk it.

The fact that Erfworlders are absolutely cool with clones being disposable changes nothing about how I feel about them myself, though. We have seen that they hold beliefs and morals that are much different than Stupidworlders, in a large part because our worlds are so different.

Parson's hangups about Free Will are seen as cute and quirky by (some) Erfworlders – understandably, since their world comes with mechanics that make such a notion seem solely possible as a thought exercise (for the rare units inclined to imagine such a thing in the first place). Same for his care about the sanctity of life of even the lowliest unit. Same for Banhammer's peace ideals being outliers whereas they are widespread here.
I can understand where Erfworlders come from if they hold the belief that clones are lesser and that it's silly to feel bad about them, given what they know and live, but as an outsider with a morality and worldview shaped by Stupidworld, I simply can't feel the same.

Which ties again to my original point that Parson, as a similar outsider with Stupidworlder morals, might be disquieted at the idea of creating a double of himself like for the parley gambit Lipkin came up with. Like he feels bad about sacrificing Bogroll. Burning curiosity aside, he might not want to try it, or do it lightly.

And since a double of Parson would probably think like Parson, and not like an Erfworlder, Parson2 would probably not be too happy with his temporary status (and proceed to try a way to game the system – maybe nab and use the scroll, and then strand the original for his troubles, haha. Unleashing a second powergamer you with nothing to lose would be opening the metaphorical Pandora's box, methinks...)

There, I feel like I've been rambling and floundering enough as is, so I'll stop there.
EDIT: Blegh I haven't written at length in English for a while sorry for all the windy, meandering, semi-coherent word wall.
I can see a Dittomancer copy freaking out knowing he's going to de-pop soon, but I can also see him taking strength and calm knowing his original will go on.

Assuming his original is still alive, that is. If not, commence freaking out.
Lipkin wrote:
Know how Parson could turn this around? He's got those extra rands from Janis. Maybe he can find a Dittomancer of his own to double him, and keep in contact with his clone via Maggie.

Imagine Trem's surprise, should he decide to not honor the truce.

I just imagine them trying to throw him into a cell, and the next morning they go to check on him and find "I'm a double, moron." scratched into the wall.


Amusing, but unlikely unless desperate situation has emerged. Parson more then most would consider the feelings of his potential double (who'd effectively "die" within a day no matter how things went). Not to mention the immediate existential crisis his double would likely have staring the first second of it's existence. Erfworlders are popped taking orders from others and having a certain understanding that they could be sacrificed for the sake of their side at any time. A dupe born from their mental framework is prepared for their fate in a way that few stupidworders could be. Dupe Parson might just flip the boop out first thing and be rather useless.
CelebrenIthil wrote:
@commander: Ah well shipping stuff to Canada gets expensive so I guess I haven't got much to do with my schmuckers except letting them pile up for a book order in the future, or giving them so somebody who's actually active and who will spread 'em around! :)


Well I'm in Michigan, but it's not so bad here. I am saving up the shmuckers to buy something big, but I don't pass them out. The day after you gave me those, I spread out like 20 in singles. XD
The image of the Trems holding hands while on the way to a closet at the end didn't seem gay to me at all. I mean sure they seemed to be having a gay old time...

What I meant to say was that the Lloyd's depressi on is more along the lines of "now there's 2 of them!". We can only guess for how long he was in the same room as Trems, watching the king pleasure himself by verbally intercoursing with a guarenteed source of intelligent conversation.

Beeskee wrote:
Exactly, and the royalty here is nothing if not hypocritical. :D

Book 1

Ganging up on a non-royal with numbers great enough so that the non-royal side can't possibly win or even have a chance of negotiating: honorable

Killing a bunch of heavily-wounded people: honorable

Attacking someone as they withdraw from a battle: honorable

Hiring a (dishonorable) mercenary force mid-battle after having them camp in the airspace and pretend to be neutral: honorable *1


Book 2

Ending another side's turn early: honorable

Outright attacking during a parley: honorable

Slaughtering helpless troops instead of offering surrender options: honorable

Changing the capital to trap units rather than just politely asking them to leave after tea and biscuits: honorable
(lol)

To be fair on Jetstone, any side with an heir and multiple capitol sites would move the capitol when they know they are about to lose a capitol fight. Relocating your capitol during a losing capitol fight is a game of brinkmanship, as you gotta decide from moment to moment when is the best time to stop bloodying your opponent's nose and have your casters retreat through the portal before they die.

CarniDollMancer wrote:
Lipkin wrote:
Sir Dr D wrote:
Parson/Wanda/Gobwin Know made a lot of enemies in the magic kingdom. It will be very hard for him to find a caster to hire.

I know they pissed off a lot of people. But Marie was able to hire a Healomancer for Parson. And I feel like those rands are a chekov's gun that is going to go off sooner rather than later.

Despite what people believe, Chekov's guns are not always Chekov's guns. Sometimes they are just dropped in to give us a bit of info. I dunno how many times I heard someone call 'Chekov's gun' in this forum only to have that gun never be fired (which is actually a more narratively interesting use for a Chekov's gun. If you use a ton of them [or have a fan base which expects them all the time] then using some to misdirect is a classic option).

Also, not only was she able to hire a Healomancer, but also, using Marie/Janis/GMTTA, he should be able to find SOMEONE to work for him. He has friends with deep pockets and big influence.

EDIT: Clarification: I actually agree with you on the Rands. Parson is going to use them brilliantly at some point. It's more the knife I am not seeing being a Chekov's anything.

Aye, here's an excellent example of an unfired gun that you spoke of from Death Note
Death Note: How to use it: XV wrote:
When the same name is written on more than two Death Notes, the note which was first filled in will take effect, regardless of the time of death.

If writing the same name on more than two Death Notes is completed within a .6 seconds it is regarded as simultaneous; the Death Note will not take effect and the individual written will not die.

Doesn't that quote just scream "THIS WILL BE VERY IMPORTANT LATER"? And yet throughout Death Note's entire 37 episode run, this very specific rule never gets applied... probably because the circumstances that would enable that rule to come into effect are highly improbable.
-D- wrote:
CarniDollMancer wrote:
Thecommander236 wrote:

I still consider it genocide no matter how you spin it.


Well there is a way to spin it that totally eliminates the idea of genocide: No reproduction on Erf, so there are no genes to cide.


This is wrong on so many levels...

Genocide comes from genos + cide. Genos is race, not genes...

Second genocide can by standard law include extermination of political or religious movements.

Ah that takes me back to the first time I ever encountered the word genocide, when I was reading Scott Westerfeld's The Risen Empire (which coincidently is where I got my username from). The word had majorly puzzled me at the time, since one of the purposes of the attempted "genocide" in it (in which the Emperor attempted to bomb the population of one of his worlds back to the stoneage) was to increase the human bio-diversity of one of his worlds due to a lack of diversity in genes.
DunkelMentat wrote:

It most certainly does not. I'm gonna put on my biologist hat for a second here because this is very important. There is no genetic basis for race. Race is a social construct. That is why the definition of who counts as white in the US has enlarged to contain previously non-white groups, like Jews, because it's just something we believe. There is NO genetic basis to race. People made it up to dehumanize other groups so they could do things like commit genocide.

Then how do you explain why chinese people have chinese kids.
CarniDollMancer wrote:
I think that by 'Papal sense' you mean that Catholics hold the Pope as perfect even when no person is supposed to be capable of perfection. But I'm not sure. I mean, Parson did already admit to that kind of failing in the whole 'Perfect strategy doesn't mean you win every encounter' talk.

I also got this conflicting image of Tales of Symphonia... The Pope of Thethe'alla in that game is a super-imperfect, evil sonuva boop.

and the king of Tethe'alla is Jesus
The genetic basis for race is random at best. Americans currently consider skin pigment and certain facial features very important for it, and those have genetic components, but... it's because those are easy to see. It isn't easy to see a Gallic from a Saxon any more, but they used to be considered different subraces of Caucasion, with a pecking order and stuff that is mostly forgotten. (By which I mean, it is forgotten if you're not Irish, Scottish, Welsh, live in the UK, and/or follow Outlander.)

If a Chinese couple have a daughter who ends up adopted by a family descended from people who fled Vietnam because they were afraid of communists, is the girl Chinese or Vietnamese?

That's a question whose answer is going to change depending on who answers. There's lots of things like that. Genes don't change like that, our definition on race does.

Another example of something that's changed over time, just because Caucasians sometimes feel that talking bout racism being the worst is saying Caucasians are the worst:
In Princess Mononoke, an Emishi prince passes as Japanese. Modern Japanese audiences don't think this odd.
CelebrenIthil wrote:
I can understand where Erfworlders come from if they hold the belief that clones are lesser and that it's silly to feel bad about them, given what they know and live, but as an outsider with a morality and worldview shaped by Stupidworld, I simply can't feel the same.


A bit of a way late reply, but my attitudes about this are complicated and not like yours.
For one thing, if I woke up one day in a computer then realized I was actually just a copy of some other self, I'm not sure it'd bother me that much.

I think of this sort of thing a lot and my attitude is mainly existential.
It is difficult to explain, but suffice it to say, suffering immensely before dying is probably way worse than peacefully slipping into oblivion. It's not like I'll know I'm dead anyway.

In a sense, your current self is just an instantiated example of your "self." There is the illusion of continuity between your past and current self, but none of those infinite selves are ever exactly alike. You simply deem them the "same" as a matter of convenience.

Hell, I'd probably take the time to ham-it-up. I'm a computer AI. How cool is that shit?

There's a mad scientist in the manga, Battle Angel Alita. And its sequel, he winds up having three or four clones of himself with slightly different personalities. But well before that point he was perfectly content to simply reconstruct himself from nanobots from the last-saved state of his memories, in spite of being pretty having been murdered repeatedly. To him, crises of identity were not interesting. He gloried in the messy chaos of life and was more concerned with his ultimate legacy and agendas than piddling about with any illusions of a "true" self.

Tramennis continues to impress me since he cloned himself and his clone proceeded to carry out their prank in good fun. There's no better co-conspirator than yourself after all.