Book 3 - Page 74

"What is your prize?”

Book 3 - Page 74
Comic - Book 3 - Page 74
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Spicymancer wrote:
oslecamo2 temp wrote:
Anomynous 167 wrote:

No Mongol Empire-like sides? The only reason the Mongols were "strong everywhere" was because they sacked all the cities they came across to support their upkeep. They didn't have to defend their cities while they were punching all their foes in the face. Their momentum was such that their foes didn't have time to pop and train new armies, every time the Mongols smashed them.

Infact, we've had an example of a Mongol Empire-like side. Gobwin Knob - Book 2.


First, GK at book 2 was still a turtle when compared to the Mongols.The royals still had plenty of time to get their armies in position, including Jetstone's super doomstack holding a key chokepoint and reinforcements right up the corner. Ansom even comments GK got lucky the royals were too arrogant to meet them head on with their fullforce right away. They could've got forces in position fast enough, the royals just believed the puny peasant army was no challenge at all. Stupidworld Mongols were devastating because they would be up your face before you could set up any kind of proper fortifications or even form up your already trained soldiers.

Second, the Mongols were perfectly happy to leave your cities in one piece as long as you kneeled and paid them tribute. That's why the mongols actually created the biggest empire in history, with countless vassal regions paying them taxes. The Mongols were smart enough to know that not wrecking a city would be a lot more profitable in the long run. On the other hand cities that tried to resist often did get razed to the ground with everything burned to serve as example that you didn't mess up with the Mongols.


That sounds a lot like what Seaworld had going on in the Forecastle updates.

A superstate controlling few actual cities but keeping armies at major roads / naval lanes and ensuring peace for vassal states isn't necessarily a bad deal. It avoids diminishing shmuckers, but more importantly the logistical issues of micromanaging everything you've aquired. There's no such thing as restless locals in Erfworld, but actually being nice and tolerant to their compliant vassal states was what kept the Mongols doing so well. Everyone just prefers to remember the rampaging horde over the first empire to establish a working continent spanning postal service.



The Mongols were ultimately undone because of their fragile succession process. That sort of reminds me of Gobwin Knob.
Anomynous 167 wrote:
No Mongol Empire-like sides? The only reason the Mongols were "strong everywhere" was because they sacked all the cities they came across to support their upkeep. They didn't have to defend their cities while they were punching all their foes in the face. Their momentum was such that their foes didn't have time to pop and train new armies, every time the Mongols smashed them.

Infact, we've had an example of a Mongol Empire-like side. Gobwin Knob - Book 2.


I'm not just talking in terms of strength, I also mean longevity. The Mongol Empire started in 1206 and stayed united until 1259 when he broke up into factions (or 1279 depending on your definition of "united"). No side has seemed capable of winning vast territory and keeping it for more than one generation. Haffaton only stayed alive as long as Olive Branch did and she eventually brought her kingdom down through negligence. She was three successors short of being a "Mongol Empire". Jetstone may have lasted a long time, but they haven't expanded to ridiculous size. I would say that in terms of size they are about even with England before it founded the British Empire or Rome before it started conquering everything around it. Rome just kinda sat there for a while, staying steady before it made it big.

Mirage GSM wrote:
Thecommander236 wrote:
...on top of that I already failed twice to bride him...
Why would I try to bride him with ... And here the bride is "use the vast resources of carnymancy to break your Fate to kill me" vs the other bride that Charlie IS using: ...

Who is this bride Charlie is supposed to have procured for Parson? :roll:


You mean "what", right? The scroll to send him home.

Mirage GSM wrote:
You're saying that all Carnies respect Charlie for being a backstabbing asshole. Why? Because he is a bigger backstabbing asshole than themselves? I think not. At least that's not how it works in stupidworld. If someone is known for screwing you over as soon as they'll profit from it, it will become much harder to trust them.


Yes, I'm saying exactly that and they've shown to respect Charlie for getting paid that many times. We went over this.

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“Charlie got paaaaid,” he said, grinning as Abner and the woman to his left–an attractive performer named Monica Sobriquet–chimed in to say it with him.

“The way I figure,” said Bugs, leaning back on his bench, “first he got paid by Homekey by fulfillin‘ the contract, right? Then by Delkey for fulfillin‘ their contract. Then maybe again by Delkey if they flew in and rescued the Prince, maybe they drew up a new contract real quick. Then they prob‘ly croaked yer King fer the bounty, and got paid again.”

“Paid four times for the same battle,” said Abner, looking down at the table in wonder.

“That‘s very Cholly,” said Monica.

“Ain‘t it, though?” said Bugs.


"Wonder".

By google:
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a feeling of surprise mingled with admiration, caused by something beautiful, unexpected, unfamiliar, or inexplicable...

synonyms: awe, admiration, wonderment, fascination; surprise, astonishment, stupefaction, amazement


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“Yeah,” said Dove. “That is what I‘m sayin‘. That‘s why I wanna talk to him. If he ever expects me to work for him again...”

“What? Why would you even consider it?!” Digdoug surprised himself with the shout. “If that‘s true! Why would you ever work for somebody like that?”

There was a long, uncomfortable silence at the table. Monica put her spoon into her empty bowl and rubbed the nail on her index finger. “Cholly‘s real good to Carnies, mistah,” she said.

“I ain‘t happy about it, Digdoug,” said Dove, the corners of her mouth turning down, “but if Delkey paid him, then they paid him. That‘s all there is to it.”

Monica nodded. “He just gots-a get paid, is all.”


Dove herself freaking excused him for it!

Mirage GSM wrote:
How's that:
Dove wrote:
She‘d pointed vaguely in the direction of the morning sun. “East side of the island. There‘s a place called Short Pier there. If you can‘t pay your upkeep, then you go stand there to watch the sunrise and disband. If somebody‘s feeling generous, maybe they go by and save you. It‘s our last resort. There‘s somebody there almost every day, sometimes more than one.”


Does it say every person who goes to the short pier is a Carny? Does it even hint that Carnies go there more than other casters?

Mirage GSM wrote:
Or that:
Quote:
“Stews” were a popular activity in the Carnyvale. Depending on the type of food, eating extra rations would reduce a unit‘s upkeep by a substantial amount. A good solid meal in addition to your popped rations generally meant cutting your next turn‘s upkeep in half, for barbarian and sided units alike. And prepared meals gave you more upkeep relief than just eating raw forage or produce.
So Carnies gathered at long wooden tables by a few community cauldrons, where a permanent, ever-changing soup was always bubbling. The price for a bowl was new ingredients, plus extra Shmuckers to the cauldron‘s owner if your offering was too paltry. Anyone who brought meat to the soup could have a bowl for the next three turns, but few managed that.


I mean that's no proof at all. Just proof that Carnies eat additional rations to low upkeep. Everyone does that. There's a whole section in Artemis' story where she is not only described as procuring extra rations the turn that she was popped, but that the escort that went with her packed rations before they even left the city. Slately says that he has units every where foraging, so even sides aren't immune from upkeep cost. All this tells me is that Carnies like saving money by having a solid meal. They all live in the Magic Kingdom in fixed spots so you might as well make a garden to lower upkeep especially if you're a barbarian. Dove says that Carnies are hired by sides less often than other casters, but she never said that Carnies were poorer than other casters. The Carnies literally run a Carnival of games, shows, and spectacles and the booths are open every day. Plus they run what is basically a casino and this is explained right after that bit with the Long Walk which you conveniently ignored.

Quote:
He spent a few more minutes sitting there on the grass, listening to the sleeping man‘s muculent snoring as well as to the distant music of some Rhyme-o-mancy instrument with a lot of whistling pipes in it. The Carnyvale was designed to attract casters from all over the Magic Kingdom in an open attempt to part them from their Shmuckers and Rands. It cultivated an atmosphere of wild revelry, in a place where he gathered the entertainment options were pretty slim. Casters with money trickled in to spend it or gamble it, day or night.

...Instead of going out to Short Pier and saving someone‘s life, he suddenly realized. Digdoug shook his head. How completely pointless. What was wrong with people? With the world?


So people obviously have money to blow and Carnies literally spend all day collecting money by providing the one thing most other casters don't. Entertainment. I can't even assume it's a small time show. The phrase "wild revelry" doesn't strike me as a phrase you use for an unsuccessful Carnival.

CarniDollMancer wrote:
Not necessarily. He would only have to buy off casters he used Carnymancy with. If he is acting as the Thinkamancer and not using his art, most non Think casters may not be able to pick out his specialty. I'm guessing one way he uses the 'Dish in his links is to Thinkamantically conceal his craft from the other mind(s) in the link.


Yeah that's what I meant. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Galdon wrote:
No. Bad idea. Fate seems to be kind of like a DM. It can do basically anything, but tries to be subtle about it most of the time. If you make fate rage quit, you have to deal with the rage part. So, you're likely to end up having a "Rocks fall, everybody dies" incident.


That is a point.

Spicymancer wrote:
That sounds a lot like what Seaworld had going on in the Forecastle updates.

A superstate controlling few actual cities but keeping armies at major roads / naval lanes and ensuring peace for vassal states isn't necessarily a bad deal. It avoids diminishing shmuckers, but more importantly the logistical issues of micromanaging everything you've aquired. There's no such thing as restless locals in Erfworld, but actually being nice and tolerant to their compliant vassal states was what kept the Mongols doing so well. Everyone just prefers to remember the rampaging horde over the first empire to establish a working continent spanning postal service.


Also a good point. I think Seaworld was described as an empire. Anchorbar would have just been their equivalent of China. By I think Seaworld basically was the British Empire, so screw me for forgetting about that.

Mad Humanist wrote:
The Mongols were ultimately undone because of their fragile succession process. That sort of reminds me of Gobwin Knob.


Yep. Again, all it took was the lack of a fourth successor.
Thecommander236 wrote:
Mirage GSM wrote:
Thecommander236 wrote:
...on top of that I already failed twice to bride him...
Why would I try to bride him with ... And here the bride is "use the vast resources of carnymancy to break your Fate to kill me" vs the other bride that Charlie IS using: ...

Who is this bride Charlie is supposed to have procured for Parson? :roll:


You mean "what", right? The scroll to send him home.

Psst. He's ribbing you about using briDe instead of briBe.
No one in particular wrote:
Psst. He's ribbing you about using briDe instead of briBe.


Whelp, time to pack it in.

Let me just go make some cereal first.

Image

Damn it...
Quote:
"Wonder".

I never argued the Carnies don't respect or even admire Charlie for his money-making skills, but you can be in awe of or admire someone without actually liking them.
Especially if the object of your awe is likely to stab you in the back for personal profit - or if it turns out that they have already done so for some time...
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Dove herself freaking excused him for it!

Yes. She still said she wouldn't work for him again if she could at all help it. She's being pragmatic. She does not like Charlie.
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I mean that's no proof at all.

I'm not going to quote that entire part of the Digdoug story. No, maybe not every caster at that pier is a Carnie. But we do know that Carnies in particular have a hard time getting hired. Dove did say that she had to let several of her friends die. Do you think she had many non-carnymancer friends?
Yes, rations cut down the upkeep of all units not only Carnymancers, but if a unit had enough Shmuckers, would they really have to eat from a communal stew pot? Why didn't you bold the last part of my quote where it says that only very few Carnies managed to procure meat to add to the stew?
Plus the whole Carnyvale in that story has more signamancy of a slum than a carnival.
Yes, there may be gambling joints, but I doubt they are the Vegas kind with filthy rich owners...
Mirage GSM wrote:
Quote:
I mean that's no proof at all.

I'm not going to quote that entire part of the Digdoug story. No, maybe not every caster at that pier is a Carnie. But we do know that Carnies in particular have a hard time getting hired. Dove did say that she had to let several of her friends die. Do you think she had many non-carnymancer friends?
Yes, rations cut down the upkeep of all units not only Carnymancers, but if a unit had enough Shmuckers, would they really have to eat from a communal stew pot? Why didn't you bold the last part of my quote where it says that only very few Carnies managed to procure meat to add to the stew?
Plus the whole Carnyvale in that story has more signamancy of a slum than a carnival.
Yes, there may be gambling joints, but I doubt they are the Vegas kind with filthy rich owners...


So I'm going to do this a step at a time. First, how is someone going to get meat in the Magic Kingdom where we have no evidence that creatures besides maybe small animals pop? You think barbarian casters go through enemy portals to go hunting? And yes, I expect ALL barbarians to eat when ever they can. It doesn't say that they wouldn't survive if they didn't eat extra rations, but if you can save money by eating a good meal, why would you refuse to? You may need that money for scrolls that you can sell for a higher price to rulers.

Vardos are slums? Since when? There are highly decorated pieces of art that support chimneys in some cases. It says that Dove's Vardo is small and there's a lot of bigger ones. Her upkeep is 75 shmuckers. She's low level. Compare that to the "suites" at the Thinkamancy Temple. I think I rather sleep in the Vardo then those spartan, tiny quarters.

And then there's this quote:
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Before long, the sun would set. Did he ever want to see it rise again? How was he supposed to live now? What would be the purpose of it? “Why would I stay here, Dove?” he said with his face to the door. “Why would you even think I‘d do that? I‘m not a Carny.”

“It‘s a big tent,” said Dove. “We got losers of all kinds around here.”

He blew air out of his nose. “Thanks.”

She stepped up behind him. He was ready to turn the doorknob and leave if she touched him again, but she didn‘t. “I‘m teasin‘. But it‘s true. D‘you know how I make most of my upkeep, Digdoug?”

He kept his face to the door. “Hiring out, I guess.”

“Huh! Please. Nobody hires Carnies. The gig with Homekey was like...Titanic luck or something. Work like that never comes along! And still I blew it, disband me.”

He could feel her breath on his neck, but she kept apart from him. “Then how?” he asked, as she obviously wanted him to.

“I manage people. I find gigs for casters, and I take a cut. Oh sure, I do shows sometimes. Run a card table sometimes, loan out the hat... But mostly, I hustle. A lot of us do that,” she said. “Usually it‘s on a per-gig basis. But you know Doc Sassafras? He‘s signed up with me long-term. He never hasta worry about his upkeep. I find him work, or I get his potions and scrolls sold to buyers. I could hustle for you, too. You wouldn‘t ever need to worry.”

He took in a deep breath and let it out slowly, still touching and sensing the signet ring on his finger. “You‘d find me work?”

“I could find you a lot of Dirtamancy work, Digdoug.”


The Carnies aren't hired, but they work. They sell OTHER people's spells and services. It doesn't matter if no one hires Carnies. With Dove's hustling, she can provide Doc Sassafras with enough work that he never has to worry about his upkeep and that's after she takes a cut. It's implied Sassafras is a quack or at least low level. Yet she can still hustle well enough to get him work. And yeah, all kinds of losers, so maybe my "racist" theory may be wrong, bu, yes, I think a great many of her friends weren't Carnies. It seems fellowship, based on this update, among Carnies extends to other members of Carnyvale. Digdoug sees that as a trap, that Dove may just be trying to use him, but if she has several casters under her belt? Well, she not be as poor as you claim.
I just had a thought. Jojo is claiming the game of Erfworld is horrible and rigged, but...I mean...like the game of Stupidworld ISN'T?!
Lheticus wrote:
I just had a thought. Jojo is claiming the game of Erfworld is horrible and rigged, but...I mean...like the game of Stupidworld ISN'T?!


Well, our world doesn't directly, malevolently conspire against you.

...It just feels that way sometimes.
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You think barbarian casters go through enemy portals to go hunting? And yes, I expect ALL barbarians to eat when ever they can. It doesn't say that they wouldn't survive if they didn't eat extra rations, but if you can save money by eating a good meal, why would you refuse to?

No, but if they had money they might be able to buy some...

You know, if nothing I said and quoted so far convinced you, nothing I could say will, so let's let it rest.
I was reading Fool by Christopher Moore recently, and it came to me that all the talk about mad infirm Rulers could have been alluding to King Lear.

At least, Lear is the only really famous mad infirm ruler I know.