Book 3 - Page 73

“She was like Wanda's personal attack dog.”

Book 3 - Page 73
Comic - Book 3 - Page 73
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I agree that Carnymancy isn't merely using Luckamancy to accomplish it's ends. I think that Fate and Erfworld itself will use whatever magics necessary in order to enforce the goal. JoJo used Carnymancy to tweak Fate, and then Fate used Luckamancy when necessary in order to ensure Slyvia didn't die.
0beron wrote:
I agree that Carnymancy isn't merely using Luckamancy to accomplish it's ends. I think that Fate and Erfworld itself will use whatever magics necessary in order to enforce the goal. JoJo used Carnymancy to tweak Fate, and then Fate used Luckamancy when necessary in order to ensure Slyvia didn't die.


See, I'm not even sure about that. It seems odd that Fate would use a discipline from a different axis to do its work. That implies that Fate has to get Erf to help it, therefore Fate is weaker than Erf or that Fate can steal power from Erf, therefore Fate is stronger than Erf. If there was any overlap between the axes then why can't Erf change someone's Fate using luckamancy, but Fate is able to change the natural order of Erf to enforce its will? I have to assume that Artemis having three crits deflected just CAN'T be coincidence and instead were completely intentional. As in they were Fated to happen and had nothing to do with luck. Just because Artemis and Archer thought it was Luckamancy doesn't mean anything. They aren't Carnymancers OR Luckamancers. They're warlords and warlords misunderstand magic all the time! Otherwise why else would Dirtamancers be shunned by their sides?
Because the system of Erfworld works as an integrated whole. It's not that Fate actively needs to borrow or steal power, but rather that Fate choosing something makes it "fact" and every part of Erfworld's system respects that "fact". We watch it in action when Wanda pops: Numbers are drawn up, and "Erfworld processes the transaction".

This is all hypothesis, mind you. But to me that's how it seems Erfworld operates based on what little bit of meta-info we've seen.
0beron wrote:
Because the system of Erfworld works as an integrated whole. It's not that Fate actively needs to borrow or steal power, but rather that Fate choosing something makes it "fact" and every part of Erfworld's system respects that "fact". We watch it in action when Wanda pops: Numbers are drawn up, and "Erfworld processes the transaction".

This is all hypothesis, mind you. But to me that's how it seems Erfworld operates based on what little bit of meta-info we've seen.


Same is true of my hypothesis. I could also be completely wrong. What my hypothesis is that all talking, living, and mobile units are made of Life, Motion, Matter, Erf, Fate, and Numbers. That every element is in a man or a vampire or a whatever. However, I think, while different magics can be combined, they are segregated when cast. When Maxwell, a Thinkamancer, liked himself with Barton, a Dollamancer, and later he linked with Komatsu, a Dirtamancer, he gave their golems minds. He believed that he was giving them the gift of life by giving them Natural Thinkamancy, but he was wrong. When Maxwell died the golems lost the ability to think. You can't give someone Natural Thinkamancy except maybe through promoting someone to ruler (and in that case it might the transfer or unlocking of the natural Thinkamancy). He give them life by sharing his own. He couldn't create Life. Death is basically natural Weirdomancy. Weirdomancy is the magic of subverting other magics. Croaking someone takes away the natural Life magic that was part of them. When Maxwell died so did the golems because the natural Weirdomancy of death severed his link to the golems through which he shared his life. It snapped back that shared life as none of Maxwell ' life still existed on Erfworld.

Wanda claims that death strips units both of Life and Motion and she could give motion back. The matter of bodies doesn't leave until the next turn. We can also infer that death doesn't immediately destroy Fate either because Sylvia still died by self destruction and fire even though she already died at Gobwin Knob. The threads of Fate hadn't left her matter. We can then postulate that Wanda isn't restoring motion or life to her units. She is giving them access to her life and motion. Natural magics is what probably keeps their minds and bodies intact.

Which brings me to my conclusion, that true units can utilize magic by casting for their natural resource. This would explain why Wanda could cast a spell that required Findamancy, an Erf magic, because she could be using the natural Erf magic of her body. Similarly, she could cast Thinkamancy despite her magic not using life magic because he was drawing from her own life. That would also explain why the backlash of a broken suggestion spell would hurt the caster, because the caster's life magic is mangled. Fate can't don't this because it isn't a unit. It is only one component of a unit. Sure we could say that ALL Fate of all things, places, and peopls is one giant reserve of magic, but it's all just Fate magic. And that reserve of Fate isn't all that makes up Erworld. Erfworld is made up of all the magic, Life, Motion, Matter, Erf, Fate, and Numbers. Fate magic as a whole is only 1/6th of Erfworld. So instead of saying Carnymancy used Luckamancy to change Fate or Fate use Luckamancy to change Fate or that Fate used Luckamancy, etc., it would be more appropriate to Erfworld used Luckamancy to let Fate get its way. The difference is subtle but it's similar to Ansom's Dwagon vs. Carpet monologue a few pages back.

Though, you're right. These ideas are just hypotheses.

Edit: by the way, it is not lost on me that this is the exact opposite conclusion that I made previously. The conclusion that Carnymancy, a Fate magic, did not utilize Luckamancy, an Erf magic. This conclusion is suggestion that Carnymancy can affect Luckamancy, albeit VERY indirectly. The only other conclusion I could suggest is that JoJo was sharing his natural reserve of Luckamancy. Therefore, if Jojo had died first, the Sylvia protective spell would have disappeared as well. And this theory also doesn't explain why magic items made by casters still work after the caster is dead. The only answer I can suggest is that Caster can impart Magic of their discipline by drawing it from Erfworld itself. They can't give something natural Magic to a unit or an object so they give the object some sort of unnatural Magic. See even if my theory is right we are at least 3 revelations away from confirming it.
imany wrote:
Delphi never specified a gender in her letter.

Quote:

Your name is Jillian, read the parchment, in huge bold script at the top.
[...]
possibly Gillian or Jill, and you have a role to play for Fate.


They're all female names regardless, not that it would particularly matter since whatever Fate decreed isn't written down anywhere. It could just as easily be 'Faq will pop a royal warlord' or 'warlord heir' in the example.

Gillian (with a hard G, a G-hard if you will :D ) is too a male name. One of the antagonist from Tales of Xillia had it.
Thecommander236 wrote:
...
...Wanda claims that death strips units both of Life and Motion and she could give motion back. The matter of bodies doesn't leave until the next turn. We can also infer that death doesn't immediately destroy Fate either because Sylvia still died by self destruction and fire even though she already died at Gobwin Knob. The threads of Fate hadn't left her matter. We can then postulate that Wanda isn't restoring motion or life to her units. She is giving them access to her life and motion. Natural magics is what probably keeps their minds and bodies intact.

Which brings me to my conclusion, that true units can utilize magic by casting for their natural resource. This would explain why Wanda could cast a spell that required Findamancy, an Erf magic, because she could be using the natural Erf magic of her body. Similarly, she could cast Thinkamancy despite her magic not using life magic because he was drawing from her own life. That would also explain why the backlash of a broken suggestion spell would hurt the caster, because the caster's life magic is mangled. Fate can't don't this because it isn't a unit. It is only one component of a unit....

"Fate isn't a unit, it is part of a unit"
Let me just take that out of context. When Sylvia croaked, her fate died with her. When she was decrypted, her Fate revived with her.
Sylvia's fate was just as much a part of her, just as much of a stat, as her Move and the RGB value of Hair.
Anomynous 167 wrote:
"Fate isn't a unit, it is part of a unit"
Let me just take that out of context. When Sylvia croaked, her fate died with her. When she was decrypted, her Fate revived with her.
Sylvia's fate was just as much a part of her, just as much of a stat, as her Move and the RGB value of Hair.


Yes, exactly. I've thinking about it. If Fate is given to a unit then maybe works like Maxwell's connection to his golems. If Maxwell was simply sharing part of his life with the golems, then their "lives" ended when his did. If the three elements and the three axes are parts of Erfworld and every unit has a little bit of each of those inside itself... then that means Erfworld is a "unit" as well. A vast, incredibly powerful unit, but a unit. My thought was that if Erfworld itself is such a unit, then each object on Erfworld is like Maxwell and his golems. It is sharing parts of it's material with everything creation (except maybe the Titans and/or the Tools). I like to point out that when a golem is destroyed, it is still possible to reanimate the "body" as long as the material is still usable. The same could be true with the decrypted. If all parts of it (Erf magic, Fate magic, and Numbers magic) stayed connected with the body, then that could explain why Sylvia's Fate wasn't lost after she died at GK. It never left.

A few things would need to be true for this to work:

-Thinking, moving units are maybe of all elements and axes.
-Maxwell was sharing the Life from his mind/body instead of using the Life from his casting discipline (explaining why magic items would continue to work after a caster's death, but not the Maxwell's sapient golems). Wanda is sharing his life with the decrypted.
-Erfworld works like a giant unit and (based on the last assumption) shares parts of itself with all things on Erfworld.
-That as long as the matter of a unit still exists, that all three axes that made up its existence are still connected to the body until it depops.

I wasn't kidding when I said we would need three revelations to prove this, but I was off by one step. I assume that since the Matter of the croaked unit still exists, then all memories of the unit would be stored in the physical structure of its brain. Wanda already allowed the uncroaked to have new motion. I suggest that the "Life" part that she shares later is not the original "Life" that the unit had and is instead just allows the brain to think freely again (for a given value of freedom) and that memories are stored in the matter, not in the life.

So, actually we FIVE revelations to prove I'm right.

-Memories are in the Matter element and not the Life element.

If, say, we learn that Wanda is giving decrypted their old life back or giving them new life that isn't connected to hers (meaning that they will continue to life without her)... well I'm not saying my theory would be borked but that COULD make it borked.

Yeah so I'm not too confident about this, but it would fit with what we know, it's just... a lot of assumptions.
Hahaha but why are there snakes everywhere??
zbeeblebrox wrote:
Hahaha but why are there snakes everywhere??


The Hippiemancers just like them for some reason. It's never really explained.
There's gotta be a reason. I would say it's because of the poison connection between snakes and Flower Power, but Olive's "invention" of poison seems at odds with Hippiemancer values and everyone reacts to it with contempt, so I feel like that sort of theme wouldn't be welcome in the MK.

Maybe it's some sort of backwards allusion to Saint Patrick and the snakes of Ireland?
A quick search of "snake" on google brings up "Serpent (symbolism)" on Wikipedia. Just glancing at it you see "represent dual expression of good and evil". "Fertility and rebirth", "Guardianship", "Poison and medicine", and "Vengefulness and vindictiveness". Then there's the "Rod of Asclepius" and the "Caduceus" staff. Of those, I think "good and evil" and "fertility" are the most likely options. The Rod and Staff would be the symbols of Healomancy more likely.

0beron wrote:
Maybe it's some sort of backwards allusion to Saint Patrick and the snakes of Ireland?


So Saint Patrick was a Retconjuror and that's where he sent all the snakes.