Book 3 - Page 71

“I’m mellow!” he snapped.

Book 3 - Page 71
Comic - Book 3 - Page 71
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oslecamo2 is always like that about Jillian. We are completely unable to talk him out of it. I even already explained all the possibilities things compriise a sue character based on the TV Tropes page. Jillian hits two of the traits at most out of like 40 and all of her relationships are completely disfunctional. Yet people point out her amount of lovers as a sue trait. The good it did her, almost getting killed four times out of a problem caused by a relationship. It seems to hurt her more than it's helped her in the long run. Arguably, GK was the only time when love prevented her from being killed (ignoring Ansom saving her, but they played that off as a mutual game where they both rescued each other constantly).
Kaed wrote:
Jillian is an excellent stabby slashy girl, but there are a lot of other people who are just as good if not better at it.
When has anyone been presented as better at stabbing things than Jillian? If I were to make a list ranking the fighting skills of all the characters in Erfworld, I would probably put Jillian at the top.

Kaed wrote:
Now, Jillian has, at this time, at least four people who are or were in love with her, or fond of her. Wanda, Ansom, Jack, Vinnie. However, I am fairly certain that the only one of those people who could even be considered to still be pursuing her is Vinnie.
There's really no defending Jillian against this classic Mary Sue trait. The fact that some of her suitors seem to have gotten over her doesn't change the fact that she is strangely attractive.

I imagine that in Erfworld being romantically attractive and being good at fighting go hand-in-hand, so this one may actually be just another aspect of her extraordinary fighting skill, and anyone with her level of skill could expect a similar number of suitors.

Kaed wrote:
The ability to succeed at anything they set out to do, due to an improbably wide array of skills or literal deus ex machina dropping the solution in their lap.
This one is easy to defend Jillian against because she clearly does not have an improbably wide array of skills, nor does she succeed more often than she fails. Jillian is good at fighting and she wins battles, but that's her only skill and she tends to lose the battles that actually matter.

Kaed wrote:
Further, ranting about deus ex machina favoring someone in a setting where 'Fate' is a literal, quantifiable, and observable force that can be considered, in its own way, to be a sort of antagonist, is actually kind of thoughtless.
Erfworld is not such a setting. People talk about Fate, but it is still invisible and its nature is unclear. If Fate is an antagonist then it's a wildly overpowered antagonist with no characterization, a being of pure deus ex machina. It would be appropriate to complain about such an antagonist if it were clear that it actually exists in Erfworld, but so far Fate has stayed sufficiently mysterious that we can't even be sure whether or not it is a thinking agent.
Lilwik wrote:
Kaed wrote:
Further, ranting about deus ex machina favoring someone in a setting where 'Fate' is a literal, quantifiable, and observable force that can be considered, in its own way, to be a sort of antagonist, is actually kind of thoughtless.
Erfworld is not such a setting. People talk about Fate, but it is still invisible and its nature is unclear. If Fate is an antagonist then it's a wildly overpowered antagonist with no characterization, a being of pure deus ex machina. It would be appropriate to complain about such an antagonist if it were clear that it actually exists in Erfworld, but so far Fate has stayed sufficiently mysterious that we can't even be sure whether or not it is a thinking agent.


Are we actually reading the same story here? There have been mounds of testimony from erfworld inhabitants that not only is fate an active, observable force, but that it has an agenda, even if it is not always perfectly clear. And that you can, in certain ways, bargain with it, or even thwart it to an extent. If you are holding out for some sort of physical manifestation of fate to appear and say 'sup dawg I herd u like hamstards' before you will accept it exists in this setting then I think you will be waiting a long time, if not forever. If you can hear a duck quacking, there are duck feathers on the ground, and you can see duck footprints in the dirt, then the fact that you cannot currently see the duck does not mean there is no clear evidence the duck exists, and that we cannot prove that the duck is capable of making the conscious decision to hide behind that bush over there.

It might not even have to be a thinking agent in the manner of people. As a higher, incorporeal power in Erfworld, you could even liken it to the unfathomable, alien agendas you read about in Lovecraft stories.

But sitting here telling me that 'fate has stayed too mysterious to prove it exists' is shoving your face in the sand like an ostrich caricature. And, 'overpowered, with no characterization'? We're talking about FATE. Fate is not a CHARACTER in this story, it is a FORCE, that can be qualified as an antagonist in many regards. And erfworld is NOT a game that you can place 'balance' rules on, it is a world that functions LIKE a game. (omg fate op nerf fate plx)

Antagonist: noun. A character, group of characters, institution, or concept that stands in or represents opposition against which the protagonist(s) must contend.

You can't just start saying that if ~FATE~ is an antagonist, then it's clearly an even bigger Mary Sue than everyone else. That is not how you do story analysis. A mary sue has to be a clear, defined character, with an identity and personality. And even if fate DOES have those traits, and we just haven't seen then yet, god-like forces and beings exist in many stories, and no one rips them apart with critique about their sue-traits.

Let's face it, people get far too hung up on the idea that a character is 'unbalanced' or 'sue-like' to the point where they start trying to stab that tag onto anyone or anything in a story that seems very powerful.
Kaed wrote:

Are we actually reading the same story here? There have been mounds of testimony from erfworld inhabitants that not only is fate an active, observable force, but that it has an agenda, even if it is not always perfectly clear.

Don't waste your time arguing with them. Lilwik and a couple others refuse to accept the possibility because they don't like the idea of an impersonal god-monster rigging the plot, not because of a lack of proof. They've outright said as much.

I'm pretty sure they could come up with an alternative interpretation even if we got direct word from the narrator.
Kaed wrote:
There have been mounds of testimony from erfworld inhabitants that not only is fate an active, observable force, but that it has an agenda, even if it is not always perfectly clear.
Predictamancers and Carnymancers can certainly observe fate, but we can't observe fate and they have yet to give us any clear answers. Fate is something, but that could be a lot of things and not all of them can be fairly called an antagonist even in the broadest sense. Some day I hope to get a text update like Text Update 38 of Book 2, but instead of being about Thinkamancy it will be about Predictamancy or Carnymancy. Until we get something like that, it's premature to claim to have things figured out.

Kaed wrote:
And that you can, in certain ways, bargain with it, or even thwart it to an extent.
That's how a Carnymancer talks about Fate to a warlord, but is that a true representation of how Carnymancy works, or is it a simple metaphor to help an uneducated warlord follow along with things he cannot possibly truly understand? Is the Carnymancer even honestly trying to explain Carnymancy, or is it all just an attempt to manipulate the warlord? I worry that we'll never get to know Carnymancy the way we know Dirtamancy and Thinkamancy.

Kaed wrote:
If you are holding out for some sort of physical manifestation of fate to appear and say 'sup dawg I herd u like hamstards' before you will accept it exists in this setting then I think you will be waiting a long time, if not forever.
If fate is an antagonist of this story, then the story owes it to us to show fate to us. Otherwise we are facing an antagonist with no known motivation who is never seen and whose every action is indistinguishable from deus ex machina. That's probably the ideal badly written antagonist; I doubt there's a way to write a worse antagonist even if you tried. This is beyond a mere Mary Sue.

If fate is going to become an antagonist in this story, then I trust that fate will be revealed somehow. If we could just know something about its agenda and the limits of its powers, then it could be an antagonist. Otherwise, I trust that fate won't be an antagonist in this story. It's not clear which way the story is going to go, but the longer we go without fate making an appearance the more it seems that we'll just go with our current, well-understood antagonists like Charlie.

Kaed wrote:
Antagonist: noun. A character, group of characters, institution, or concept that stands in or represents opposition against which the protagonist(s) must contend.
In order for fate to stand in opposition to our protagonists, it would need to have some clearly defined goals and abilities. Of all the things our protagonists are trying to do, which is fate supposed to be opposing and how? The only thing we have to suggest that fate is a thing Parson might fight is Jojo's encouragement to fight it.
ManaCaster wrote:
Don't waste your time arguing with them. Lilwik and a couple others refuse to accept the possibility because they don't like the idea of an impersonal god-monster rigging the plot, not because of a lack of proof. They've outright said as much.

I'm pretty sure they could come up with an alternative interpretation even if we got direct word from the narrator.


Lilwik wrote:
-a whole lot of subjective conjecture and personal opinions on what proper storytelling stated as fact-


Eh... I really hate dropping an argument, ManaCaster, but I am reluctantly forced to admit this is a discussion that is going nowhere fast. I mean, years of reading and studying literature (and the concepts of observation and imagination) obviously means nothing in the face of such rock solid arguments as 'If we can't understand why something acts the way it does, it cannot/should not exist.'

Therefore, I'm checking out of this.
Does anyone else find it ironic, that a strip which makes no mention of her, descends into a bun-fight over the Queen of Faq-off?
Mad Humanist wrote:
Does anyone else find it ironic, that a strip which makes no mention of her, descends into a bun-fight over the Queen of Faq-off?


I don't even remember what page this was ;D I was just reading through old threads and saw people bashing at Jillian, and tried to construct a logical argument against the Jillian-hate.

-Checks-

Oh yyyyeah. Miracle elves.

I mean Juggle elves.
Mad Humanist wrote:
Does anyone else find it ironic, that a strip which makes no mention of her, descends into a bun-fight over the Queen of Faq-off?


I gave up on these guys awhile ago. And Stanley is the best at stabbing killing things. The Titans just wanted Ansom to teach her not be an idiot in love. Worked wonders in my opinion.
Jungle Elves look awesome!