Book 3 - Page 69

“The Charlescomm All-Weather Rain-ment Poncho is the perfect gear for displaying your side’s livery, even in extreme weather hexes.”

Book 3 - Page 69
Comic - Book 3 - Page 69
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Alpha the White wrote:
spriteless wrote:
There is no difference between a reference and Signamancy. Parson was literally using references to do signamancy. How can they be different?


I think what he meant is the part that Signamancy plays in the application of the reference. I was getting at this earlier, but Tuck has distilled the point:


That IS what I meant. Only stated far superiorly by Mr. White.

There's a HUGE difference between a reference and Signamancy.
spriteless wrote:

There is no difference between a reference and Signamancy. Parson was literally using references to do signamancy. How can they be different?


Besides Signamancy being a Magic Discipline; here, in context, the Difference between a reference and Signamancy, is the difference between Reference and Inference.
Knott wrote:
spriteless wrote:

There is no difference between a reference and Signamancy. Parson was literally using references to do signamancy. How can they be different?


Besides Signamancy being a Magic Discipline;


But also, Signamancy is literal Erfworld physics.
Introducing Signamancy of relatively current events has another interesting implication except for the propriety:

Erfworld has been running since July 2006.

Abu Ghraib was apparently in the news from 2004 to 2006 (not sure when that exact photo was published).

So if we assume that Pason came to Erfworld in 2006 would he be familiar with signamancy from more current events or people (i.e. President Obama the Touhoku earthquake etc.)?

Due to the admittedly quite glacial progression of the plot not even a year has since passed in Erfworld. Does that mean they are still in the year 2006 or does time pass differently in Erfworld and Stupidworld?
Mirage GSM wrote:
Introducing Signamancy of relatively current events has another interesting implication except for the propriety:

Erfworld has been running since July 2006.

Abu Ghraib was apparently in the news from 2004 to 2006 (not sure when that exact photo was published).

So if we assume that Pason came to Erfworld in 2006 would he be familiar with signamancy from more current events or people (i.e. President Obama the Touhoku earthquake etc.)?

Due to the admittedly quite glacial progression of the plot not even a year has since passed in Erfworld. Does that mean they are still in the year 2006 or does time pass differently in Erfworld and Stupidworld?

It had been theorized that Rob could adjust Parson's arrival date to any time before Kinkos goes bankrupt... which I don't think has happened yet.
If and when Parson discovers this is happening to Lilith, he's going to be just as horrified as we are. A more antiquated for of torture wouldn't resonate as much with him or us, and would be easier to shrug off as "ugly, but not unexpected." Of course sides torture. But this wasn't just torture. It was deeply personal. Parson might ok torture in the course of his duties, but he'd never sign off on this.

I will be very interested in seeing what Parson does when he finds out. I hope he doesn't become convinced by Wanda to do nothing so that they can use Lilith to spy on Charlie. At least not without contacting Lilith first. Units live to serve their sides. If Lilith knew she was still serving her side, and not merely suffering in vain, I think she would choose to endure. The only other choice is that Parson breaks truce to try and rescue her, or tries to deal with Charlie to win her freedom. No way is Charlie going to give her up, and even contacting him about her would risk exposing that Wanda can spy through her, which would likely lead to Charlie simply croaking her.

Parson has witnessed horror on Erf before. I don't know that he's ever witnessed cruelty. The closest he's come to it is when Stanley ordered the link broken and Misty croaked. But that could have been negligence, or simply necessity, as Stanley wanted Jack to hide his retreat. This is likely the first time Parson will be faced by injustice, and be in a position to do anything about it.

It needed to be over the line, to make us feel how not ok it is. The torture was not a necessary evil, it was just evil. It needed to be seen as evil, and not just vicious or brutal.

Furthermore, of course this is how Charlie operates. Everyone else is probably all hot pokers and pulled finger nails. They're using swords and bows, he's using guns and mortars. Of course his torture is going to be modern.

I don't know, I'm tired and rambling. Bottom line, it was supposed to be a punch in the gut, and it was effective. I'm not sure anything else Rob could have done would have been nearly as effective, and we've yet to see what comes of it. I'm sure it wasn't a choice he made lightly.
Lipkin wrote:


It needed to be over the line, to make us feel how not ok it is. The torture was not a necessary evil, it was just evil. It needed to be seen as evil, and not just vicious or brutal.


Totally. If it were just regular torture the people complaining about the specific reference would be just fine with whatever torture depicted instead, as they are fine with the other horrors shown in the comic.

Like we all are. The specificity gave something powerful to the story and the reader. And the Signamancy, even more so.

All in my humble opinion, of course.
Quote:
Totally. If it were just regular torture the people complaining about the specific reference would be just fine with whatever torture depicted instead, as they are fine with the other horrors shown in the comic.

Like we all are. The specificity gave something powerful to the story and the reader. And the Signamancy, even more so.

Well, I didn't have any knowledge of the photo that is referenced beforehand, and the comic still had a great impact on me, since I had plenty of historical cases to compare it to. Like I said earlier the first thing I thought about when I read the comic was a religious cult or maybe the KKK.

Learning about the reference afterwards did nothing to heigthen or lessen the impact for me. In fact I think the "religious cult" is still more fitting to the situation of Lilith and the other Archons than a prison for terrorists.
So... standing in the rain with a raincoat is torture now?
Lipkin wrote:
If and when Parson discovers this is happening to Lilith, he's going to be just as horrified as we are. A more antiquated for of torture wouldn't resonate as much with him or us, and would be easier to shrug off as "ugly, but not unexpected." Of course sides torture. But this wasn't just torture. It was deeply personal. Parson might ok torture in the course of his duties, but he'd never sign off on this.

I will be very interested in seeing what Parson does when he finds out. I hope he doesn't become convinced by Wanda to do nothing so that they can use Lilith to spy on Charlie. At least not without contacting Lilith first. Units live to serve their sides. If Lilith knew she was still serving her side, and not merely suffering in vain, I think she would choose to endure. The only other choice is that Parson breaks truce to try and rescue her, or tries to deal with Charlie to win her freedom. No way is Charlie going to give her up, and even contacting him about her would risk exposing that Wanda can spy through her, which would likely lead to Charlie simply croaking her.
I honestly don't see what Parson could possibly do about it. You're correct that there's no way Charlie would give her up, and Parson would know that. Furthermore, I doubt that he had any illusions as to Lilith's fate, wherever she wound up. He learned that torture was an integral part of Erfworld on his first day there. And really, what is being done to Lilith at the moment is pretty mild compared to what could be done. It's just the resonance of that image, and the fact that it's being done so gleefully by her former friends and colleagues that makes it so shocking to us. And of course, that it's happening before our eyes, where most of the other torture scenes have been off-screen, as it were.

Frankly, I've wondered whether Parson would have tried to stop Wanda from indulging her "hobby" in the time since TBfGK, if the ostensible purpose of it hadn't been obviated by the 'pliers. Would his Stupidworld scruples have let him stand by and let people be tortured by his own side, when he might be able to stop it? I like to think not, but we've yet to find out.