Book 3 - Page 68

Ah, but whom do they hate so much as us?

Book 3 - Page 68
Comic - Book 3 - Page 68
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Spicymancer wrote:
Well then she's not a Charlescomm asset either; she's actually costing them a 0 Shmucker upkeep and giving them nothing back, so removing her from their captivity would greatly aid their financies. Hardly a breach of contract.
Apparent typo aside, I get your point and that's still totally false. She is in Charlescomm possession, she is an asset that he actually just paid for. There is literally no way to twist it around to justify taking her as being valid within the contract.

Spicymancer wrote:
Ansom was kept prisoner by Jillians Megalo, it was not croaked yet he escaped. I await the reasoning behind this.
You were referencing the rules on rescue, not escape, so I gave you the rules on rescue. You can't reference one thing, and then try to justify your argument with a totally different mechanic. Kindly follow the discussion, since both of these mechanics have been outlined already in this very thread.

In summary, Prisoners have 2 distinct ways to get back to their origin Side:
1) Escape of their own volition, which converts them to Fugitive status which carries different restrictions. A Fugitive who then stacks with his origin Side is Repatriated.
2) Be rescued by their origin Side, which requires that any units guarding them to be removed, and then physical contact be made.

Lilith either needs to escape on her own (the chances of which are reduced by the number and power of units guarding her) or Ansom needs to croak her guards. There is literally no alternative in which "just flying up and touching her" would get her back to GK without aggression.
0beron wrote:
Apparent typo aside, I get your point and that's still totally false. She is in Charlescomm possession, she is an asset that he actually just paid for. There is literally no way to twist it around to justify taking her as being valid within the contract.


You write that, and yet we've seen some lovely literal turns and breaking of rules here.

So Ansom doesn't free her, he just distracts the Archons enough for Lilith to slip their guard and become (however briefly) a fugitive, then he touch repatriates her. If she escapes due to the negligence of Charlescomm units, then it's not really GK's fault, is it?

0beron wrote:

You were referencing the rules on rescue, not escape, so I gave you the rules on rescue. You can't reference one thing, and then try to justify your argument with a totally different mechanic. Kindly follow the discussion, since both of these mechanics have been outlined already in this very thread.

In summary, Prisoners have 2 distinct ways to get back to their origin Side:
1) Escape of their own volition, which converts them to Fugitive status which carries different restrictions. A Fugitive who then stacks with his origin Side is Repatriated.
2) Be rescued by their origin Side, which requires that any units guarding them to be removed, and then physical contact be made.

Lilith either needs to escape on her own (the chances of which are reduced by the number and power of units guarding her) or Ansom needs to croak her guards. There is literally no alternative in which "just flying up and touching her" would get her back to GK without aggression.


Frankly, you do know more about this than I do. Also frankly, relax, this isn't an attack, but the know-it-all tone I keep getting just rubs all sorts of wrong.

But I'll repeat the question, since I'm keeping up with the discussion and not as well informed: How did Ansom escape Jillian's megalo, then? It was probably very distracted, but not croaked. If Ansom can sufficiently distract the Archons guarding Lilith, while he's engaged but not actively harming them, that'd recreate the situation. Heck, Wanda can probably link with Maggie and provide some form of leadership boost for Lillith as well, just like with Ansom.
0beron wrote:
Spicymancer wrote:
Hmm... would simply knowing that they've got Lilith qualify for breach of contract, though?
As in, "unit is being materially harmed through captivity and GK is being materially deprived of a valuable resource (this Archon)" So possibly just knowing it's going on could trigger it.
The contract would be based on "status quo" at the time it was signed. Since Lilith was already a Prisoner at that time, she isn't a GK asset.



Considering they still have use for her, namely spying through her eyes and ears, she has proven to be an asset for GK even while captive. If Charlie get her to turn back it might sever this link to GK as an asset, breaking the contract. Maybe?
While on the topic of hypothetical theories that probably won't happen anyway; consider this scenario:

CC transports the prisoner and runs out of move, ending their turn in the no-man's-land (suspected ex-Unaroyal teritory). Wanda knows which Hex. GK sends a led contingent riding Dwagons and ends up in this particular Hex. And everyone goes "Well now.. This is akward...".

Due to the armistice, none of them can engage without breaching the contract. But GK goes up in their face and starts talking about the local terrain features or something. (Now let's look away from the scenario where the prisoner escapes on her own during this encounter) During the conversation a GK unit grabs the prisoner and puts her on the mount and flies back.
Repossessing a unit is not a combat engagement towards anyone else. So now the CC Archons have but two options:
A: Break the orders of guarding the prisoner.
or
B: Break the contract and engage.
It may not be an engagement (and I'm hesitant to agree with even that, because nearly everything seems to count as engagement). But lets say that hypothetically that's an ok action in of itself, GK would still be the ones violating the contract first.

Lilith is the property of Charlescomm, taking her from them, regardless of how exactly it's done, would still represent material harm to the side of Charlescomm, and constitute a breech of contract.
To me, the hazy area is what happens should Lilith escape on her own, and what follows. Given that she's outnumbered, by equally powerful units, I doubt she would get far acting on her own.

But if, hypothetically she did, and she makes it to GK territory, what then? Would GK violate the contract if the allow her to Repatriate? Would they only violate it if they refuse to return her to Charlie? Or would she be allowed to stay, because she escaped of her own accord?
Spicymancer wrote:
0beron wrote:

Spicymancer wrote:
I still think if Ansom could just walk/fly up and touch her it wouldn't count as aggression to Charlescomm, though.
As already pointed out, a Prisoner may only be Repatriated if all it's guards haven been removed. So no, he can't.


Ansom was kept prisoner by Jillians Megalo, it was not croaked yet he escaped. I await the reasoning behind this.


*if all its guards have been removed or sufficiently distracted*
That would make sense, considering it fits IRL situations well enough - if your guards are fighting someone, then they aren't really guarding you at all. Maybe the necessary degree of distraction varies depending on the unit, you wouldn't expect a non-commander unit to still focus on having a prisoner when it's got other orders.
Guards can have no orders other than the order to guard. In theory, if they move enough away from the prisoner, the prisoner can just make a run for it. Miranda the warlord hasn't been seen more than 10 feet from Lilith.
I'm a bit late to this thread, but I just wanted to say that what Jack said "Jetstone is no mercenary side. They fight us on principle, not interest." is such a masterfully wrought pun that my brain registered it as a pun the first read though, but not why until I went back a second time.

It may be my new favorite line.
Didn't notice that honestly... good catch. Principle interest. I wonder if that term has the same meaning in Erfworld?