Book 3 - Page 62

Book 3 - Page 62
Comic - Book 3 - Page 62
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Mirage GSM wrote:

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If that is the case, then keeping GK from mobilizing for a few dozen turns may be all the time Charlie feels he needs to prepare to attack them.

GK didn't have any immediate plans to invade Charlescomm. in fact they lost more Units in that battle than Charlie did, so the ceasefire probably helps GK more than Charlescomm. They get to refortify Spacerock, try some fancy tri-caster amgic etc.


GK has no plans to invade Charlescomm at the moment, but that doesn't mean that Charlescomm might not have plans to invade GK. They're the biggest threat to Charlie's plans bar none. He doesn't want to invade GK for territorial gains, he wants to crush their leadership! if he can do that AND come off looking as though he was willing to defend the Royals of the Erf from the evils of apostate Toolism, it will make him look much better in the eyes of his former customers - he might regain his old business partners' trust (especially if he can arrange it so that it looks like it was a Faq/GK thing and not a Charlescomm thing). Plus, the loss of a few hundred archons to GK would be a good way to trim down his costs for the time being without disrupting the Loyalty of his forces - I'm sure the Archons are quite happy to Croak in Service to Charlie.
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Here are some quotes from inner peace 036. This is when they are discussing sacking Haffatons level 2 city. “I don‘t want to do this,” she said, after long moments of thought. “But I think we have to. They‘re not just our enemy. According to Sister Marie, they‘re our future conqueror. It‘s inevitable. Anything we can do to hurt them or preemptively gain from them probably buys us some time. Plus...we‘re not making money any other way. Right?” Then she has her soldiers cautiously take the city. It ended up being a mistake, and a magical death trap, but her reasoning was valid.


That is more than a fair point but Jillian has always shown a degree of caution even post mind-invasion. Ansom tries to goad Jillian into over extending her reach and attacking a Gobwin Knob city that is further out of the way (in book three) - Jillian politely declines understanding the strength of her position and without Stanley's needlessly dangerous gambit she would have quite successfully pulled off her planned attack - earned her side much needed schmuckers and left her side in a stronger position to replenish her losses.

Jillian's reasoning is usually valid in that it makes logical sense. A realist analysis of her position would always lead her to walking away from Spacerock after she delivered the Kingsworld spell. She has no real reason to expend her forces in strengthening the position of a side that is not really an ally nor particularly influential to her immediate geopolitical sphere of influence.

The problem I have with her competency is that she simply seems to be out of her league. In Book 0 she was outsmarted by Olive, in Book 1 she was outsmarted by Jack, in Book 2 she wasn't actually outsmarted by anyone, in Book 3 her tactic would have been beaten by Stanley if it hadn't then turned into a chess master duel between Parson and Charlie with Stanley and Jillian's forces as their respective pieces.

She simply isn't competent enough to warrant my interest in her ability to create interesting situations. This doesn't make her incompetent by any means and I think people certainly over emphasise her incompetency. She just hasn't shown any strategic brilliance not even a flash of it Ansom had more than a few moments in Book 1 and Book 2, Caesar who has had fairly minimal screen time has been established as a complete tactical bad ass, Trem while not having as many moments and could largely be accused of a lot of incompetency has shown a lot of tactical awareness that he needs to change to combat the problem he faces.

We have been with Jillian for four books she has had more screen time than I think any other character and while she hasn't been shown to be incompetent (although certain points are debatable) we have not been shown any real brilliance and in a comic that tells the tale of truly great strategists having to watch the story of a mediocre one always leaves me a little lacklustre in my admiration for the arcs that involve her.

A story about Phil the Postman might be logical and might make sense but if Phil the Postman lives in a world with Green Lantern, Superman and Batman it will have to be a pretty special story for me to not begrudge hearing his story and not a Justice League story.

Those stories can and do exist but I don't think Jillian has enough going for her to be one of those stories. That being said I openly admit I just don't find the Wanda-Ansom-Jack-Jillian love triangle/square? that engaging if you do I think you're always going to find the character much more interesting than I do.

Different tastes and all that.

It is like arguing that chocolate ice cream is more tasty than strawberry ice cream.
Jacinth and Rubies wrote:
Mirage GSM wrote:
GK didn't have any immediate plans to invade Charlescomm. in fact they lost more Units in that battle than Charlie did, so the ceasefire probably helps GK more than Charlescomm. They get to refortify Spacerock, try some fancy tri-caster amgic etc.

GK has no plans to invade Charlescomm at the moment, but that doesn't mean that Charlescomm might not have plans to invade GK. They're the biggest threat to Charlie's plans bar none. ...

Exactly. That's the point I was making: Pushing for a ceasefire doesn't really seem to be in Charlie's best interest.
CDS wrote:
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Here are some quotes from inner peace 036. This is when they are discussing sacking Haffatons level 2 city. “I don‘t want to do this,” she said, after long moments of thought. “But I think we have to. They‘re not just our enemy. According to Sister Marie, they‘re our future conqueror. It‘s inevitable. Anything we can do to hurt them or preemptively gain from them probably buys us some time. Plus...we‘re not making money any other way. Right?” Then she has her soldiers cautiously take the city. It ended up being a mistake, and a magical death trap, but her reasoning was valid.


That is more than a fair point but Jillian has always shown a degree of caution even post mind-invasion. Ansom tries to goad Jillian into over extending her reach and attacking a Gobwin Knob city that is further out of the way (in book three) - Jillian politely declines understanding the strength of her position and without Stanley's needlessly dangerous gambit she would have quite successfully pulled off her planned attack - earned her side much needed schmuckers and left her side in a stronger position to replenish her losses.

Jillian's reasoning is usually valid in that it makes logical sense. A realist analysis of her position would always lead her to walking away from Spacerock after she delivered the Kingsworld spell. She has no real reason to expend her forces in strengthening the position of a side that is not really an ally nor particularly influential to her immediate geopolitical sphere of influence.

The problem I have with her competency is that she simply seems to be out of her league. In Book 0 she was outsmarted by Olive, in Book 1 she was outsmarted by Jack, in Book 2 she wasn't actually outsmarted by anyone, in Book 3 her tactic would have been beaten by Stanley if it hadn't then turned into a chess master duel between Parson and Charlie with Stanley and Jillian's forces as their respective pieces.

She simply isn't competent enough to warrant my interest in her ability to create interesting situations. This doesn't make her incompetent by any means and I think people certainly over emphasise her incompetency. She just hasn't shown any strategic brilliance not even a flash of it Ansom had more than a few moments in Book 1 and Book 2, Caesar who has had fairly minimal screen time has been established as a complete tactical bad ass, Trem while not having as many moments and could largely be accused of a lot of incompetency has shown a lot of tactical awareness that he needs to change to combat the problem he faces.

We have been with Jillian for four books she has had more screen time than I think any other character and while she hasn't been shown to be incompetent (although certain points are debatable) we have not been shown any real brilliance and in a comic that tells the tale of truly great strategists having to watch the story of a mediocre one always leaves me a little lacklustre in my admiration for the arcs that involve her.

A story about Phil the Postman might be logical and might make sense but if Phil the Postman lives in a world with Green Lantern, Superman and Batman it will have to be a pretty special story for me to not begrudge hearing his story and not a Justice League story.

Those stories can and do exist but I don't think Jillian has enough going for her to be one of those stories. That being said I openly admit I just don't find the Wanda-Ansom-Jack-Jillian love triangle/square? that engaging if you do I think you're always going to find the character much more interesting than I do.

Different tastes and all that.

It is like arguing that chocolate ice cream is more tasty than strawberry ice cream.



That was a very fair and accurate response CDS. I am not that interested in her character either, though I want to be. I am giving arguments in part to make me more interested. Artemis, Downer, Antium, Duncan, Ceasar, have all had much less screen time, yet are more interesting. The problem is she, like Ansom , stated off by being a deliberate clichéd character. And with a start like that, it is hard to fix the character after. But I am sure the author will manage. He finally succeeded with Ansom in an update that showed his inner conflict. The romance triangle in the comic medium also hasn't worked. There wasn't enough personal information about the characters to get us to care. It might have worked in text update format.

And you are right in that she is a competent commander, but not genius commander. She is great as a front line commander though, among erfworlds best, do to her perception, warrior ability and knowing exactly when to issue commands.
People seem to be saying that the Deal of a Lifetime requires Charlie to be helping/saving/propping up Faq and Jill. I had read Book 0 but I could not remember the specifics, so I went back to review.

Here is what I found in the way of specification, p75 of Inner Peace (structure and emphasis added):

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They [Faq] would raze el-Efbaum.
Faq would be recreated as it had been: three cities in a hidden valley.
Charlie would pledge funds to rebuild Faq, and
swear a lifetime oath
never to attack it, or
disclose its location, or
aid any side in disturbing it.

In return, each person present at the trial would pledge never to reveal what they knew of Charlie’s past.
The Court of Faq would not re-emerge into the world until it had become sufficiently enlightened to show the way for all.[/list]



I am failing to see where helping the reborn kingdom comes into it. "Not aiding those disturbing it" does not logically or reasonably extend to "paying a bucket of schmuckers to save it".

What am I missing?


...And if it's not the Deal, what is his motivation?

He's afraid of her getting decrypted and spilling the beans? No way. The swarm that was the idea of Charlie ate those beans long ago. Have we had any indication that decryption heals ancient memory/soul/personality surgery?


Nah, Charlie is keeping Queen J around for reasons other than the Deal. He's somehow trying to utilize her power in the world to manage the situation and create a better future for himself. Maybe a long-term investment in a royal side and trying to encourage its growth is a good idea, given that many royal sides aren't speaking to him.

The only concrete known is that we can only see part of his game.
MonteCristo wrote:


Trem made the exact same error. Do you believe him to be stupid? Heck Charlie didn't predict that move either. No there was nothing stupid about not being able to predict the plan that Parson came up with. He is a tactical genius who just plain outsmarts everyone.


Trem made the exact same error as Jillian? He abandoned the field, despite being in debt to people, and moved his troops away from the enemy? No he didn't, he moved his troops into position for attack and started diplomacy. He was blindsided by the change in positions of the enemy, yes, and but then used the troops he had put into position to attack them. Jill ran away to go loot some cities.

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We were told the odds of escape were incredibly low. The very fact that Ansom did escape was nothing short of fatemancy at work... Fatemancy saving Stanley's rear once again.


There's a base chance of 1%. This is improved by several factors. A lack of guards. A reduced number of captor units in the hex. Not being in a city. Strength of will. All of those were on Ansom's side. They left a high level and very powerful unit alone in a crappy prison that was distracted fighting someone. Predictably, he escaped.

Besides which, she has escaped loads of times, she knows it's doable.

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Jillian actaully showed clear concern over Charlie's warning and was strongly considering going back. Duncan actually had to convince her to ignore the warning and keep to their present course.


Which he did by saying that their allies deserved to lose, saying she'd get rich and by hinting she was being controlled. His arguments to her were of the sort that would convince a backstabber.

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And again, the fact that Charlie has his own interests is actually a PROBLEM about following what he says. Afterall if charlie thought it would benefit he would not think twice about tricking you into a suicide mission.


They have a fair bit of move, they could afford to run if it appeared to be a suicide mission. It's hard to trick people into a suicide mission, you can see how many enemies you have.

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And she did not backstab her allies. "Backstabing" actually require malicious INTENT. To backstab her allies she has to be knowingly betraying them. But she didn't; she left under the full belief that her allies were in a completel secure position. Leaving your allies when you think they are safe is NOT betrayal... at worst its simply ignorance; but again, not even the other tactical genius's in the feild could have foreseen Parson's move. Parson blindsided Both Trem AND Charlie.


She left contrary to the advice of her allies that they wanted her help to be secure. If she thought they were secure she is stupid. Part of the benefit of having lots of troops is that you can deal with surprises. When Parson blindsided Trem and Charlie if her troops had been there then they could have still won.

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ALL rulers expect obedience from their units. And Assume you mean Vinny and no, not once has she ever shown that she expects him to give her sex when she wants it. Jillian is actually rather submissive when it comes to sex. Simple fact is she does not expect nor ask Charlie or Don to do anything free for her


Yes, all rulers. Remember you said
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No Stanley is the one who feels entitled and expects everyone to do what he wants or else.


Stanley doesn't have any expectation of obedience from people who aren't his units. He has less expectations than Jill, who also expects sex from Vanna. Your comparison statement.
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Also Jillian NEVER expects anyone to help her.
is obviously false, Jillian, like Stanley, expects obedience and help from her units, just as all the people who Stanley feels entitled to the aid of are his units. And no, she doesn't expect help, she just takes it for granted, like a rich kid doesn't expect their parents to cover for them being stupid, they just take it for granted.

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ALL units would be powerless and useless in that situation. That is what the heroine buds are designed to do. This is like criticizing a person for being too weak to survive a stab to the heart.


Better units would escape or suicide.

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That was only the plan she presented to Faq. She also had the alternate idea of knocking over a different side with a similar plan that she never got to present to the court. Her plan was a lot more intelligent than Banhammer's plan which basically asked her to look for a needle in a haystack while their treasury dwindled


While these were her vague plans, her actual actions speak for themselves. You didn't address her actions.

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No stanley didn't really show much head for tactics. All he has shown is the ability to use overwhelming force. He did not factor Charlie AT ALL when he went out even though Parson warned him that Charlie was gunning for him. He went out anyway against the advice of his PERFECT warlord. And if Charlie didn't offer Parson that deal, Stanely probably would have NEVER made it back home. Really he should be thankful that Charlie apparenlty needs Jillian alive more than he needs Stanely dead.


Good use of overwhelming force is tactics. He fought well.

We don't know exactly what he factored in, and I don't think Parson warned him, he just said it was a bad idea because Charlie was gunning for him to Jack.

http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/4

http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/28

Stanley had an 80% chance of victory. Charlie prefers to not do anything for free, and probably wouldn't have attacked him just because, but he was willing to attack him to protect his special person Jillian. If Jillian didn't have plot armor Stanley would be fine.

That said, he had a good chance of winning. Jill was never doing that well in the fight. Just, there was a chance, 20% or 30% or whatever of death. He was mounted on a dwagon, she fell to the earth, he was generally fighting better than her. Charlie probably didn't have that much in the area, though if he fully mobilized he could still win a few turns later. An unpredictable factor, Jill's plot armor, intervened so that Charlie was willing to mobilize his side to protect Jill.

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An example of which would be Stanley. Really the ONLY reason he's done so well is because the plot hands so much to him. The plot handed him the hammer, it handed him a perfect warlord, and it handed him the pliers which handed him a free army, and it handed him a mountain of smuckers. By All means Stanely probably should have croaked a long time ago. But he's got pretty thick plot armor on his side. You can't hate Jillian for her plot armor unless you hate his armor aswell.


You're misunderstanding what plot armour is.

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When Bob is the lead protagonist of a work, his presence is essential to the plot. Accordingly, the rules of the world seem to bend around him. The very fact that he's the main character protects him from death, serious wounds, and generally all lasting harm (until the plot calls for it). Even psychological damage can be held at bay by Bob's suit of Plot Armor.


Let's take an example. Albus Dumbledore. He's a well known powerful wizard. It's not plot armor for him to survive a fight against Voldemort because it's in the backstory, or for him to have super strong magic because that's in the backstory. It would be plot armor for him to survive an AK without sacrificial love protection because no one can survive those. If the plot says someone has a power them using that power isn't plot armor.

The backstory says Stanley has the hammer, and he correctly got a deal to summon the perfect warlord. That's not plot armor any more than it's plot armor for Dumbledore to be a better fighter than Voldemort. Plot armor is when people and the rules twist themselves to protect someone valuable. Jillian has a bad relationship with Charlie, as has been repeatedly stated, because she betrayed him. It's plot armor for him to suddenly be willing to pay 220000 to save her with no foreshadowing or past reasons. A person is twisted, against their normal psychology (disliking Jill, loving money), to protect the special snowflake.

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And who put the gems in the mountain for Sizemore to find? The plot. It was pure stupid luck that he found them. Not to mention you seem to love to ignore how Stanley is saved by his minions but at the same time you HATE it when Jillian is saved.


Saved by who? It was established by canon that the titans put lots of gems in the mountain early on. It's normal rules of the game that Stanley has units who obey him, that's erfworld 101, units obey their overlord or king due to their loyalty stat. That's true of almost every side. It was established by canon that Charlie doesn't like talking to Jill and doesn't like wasting money. Then he saved her and spent loads of money on her. Charlie isn't one of Jill's units, this is very different, I'm not ignoring that difference.

Suppose Jill had won that fight, and Tramennis had stepped in to protect Stanley and offered to pay all damages. That would be comparable plot armor for Stanley, the ruler of another side who dislikes them stepping in to pay to protect them.

I like her less because there are differences between her character and others that make her more unlikable. Key being the unit loyalty stuff, which you seemed to ignore.
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It's plot armor for him to suddenly be willing to pay 220000 to save her with no foreshadowing or past reasons. A person is twisted, against their normal psychology (disliking Jill, loving money), to protect the special snowflake.

It would be plot armour, if Charlie isn't revealed to have had a good reason later on. Some have speculated what that reason could be, and I don't really buy any of the explanations 100%, but I trust the author to come up with something spectacular.
ArkenSaw wrote:
Arky wrote:
I'd love to see a flashback or side-story featuring Stanley the Piker, actually.


This -- very much this. From pop to coronation.


Yes <3 <3 <3
Mirage GSM wrote:
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It's plot armor for him to suddenly be willing to pay 220000 to save her with no foreshadowing or past reasons. A person is twisted, against their normal psychology (disliking Jill, loving money), to protect the special snowflake.

It would be plot armour, if Charlie isn't revealed to have had a good reason later on. Some have speculated what that reason could be, and I don't really buy any of the explanations 100%, but I trust the author to come up with something spectacular.


As I and others have noted she has pretty thick plot armor- the fall, Charlie, Charlie's angels breaking their rules to help her, Wanda taking the spell damage from the thinkamancy spell, Wanda attacking Jillian, her daddy coming to save her after she got captured. Some are justified eventually, some not, but the fact remains that whenever she is in danger of being croaked some outside force saves her. Whenever she's in a situation where the dice say she could take fatal damage she doesn't not due to any action of hers, but due to things that need retroactive justification.

This is in contrast to other characters who win by outmaneouvering others. For example, when Wanda was trapped with no move in front of a host of archers and casters she croaked her dwagon at Parson's order, when she was outnumbered by the first royal coalition she mass necro'd an army with her croakamancy, when Jack was faced with a superior force of vampires and Jillian he made an illusion to escape, when Ansom was faced with an unbeatable coalition of casters and ground troops he got Jack to make an illusion of a ground column and brought in a heavy air force, when Parson was in danger of croaking from a fire he called his leader to change the capitol site.
Beeskee wrote:
ArkenSaw wrote:
Arky wrote:
I'd love to see a flashback or side-story featuring Stanley the Piker, actually.


This -- very much this. From pop to coronation.


Yes <3 <3 <3



Yeah like that story about the jetstone's archers with similar names. I'd like to get to know the stack he was popped in too.