Book 3 - Page 60

“That would set an unacceptable precedent, I’m afraid.”

Book 3 - Page 60
Comic - Book 3 - Page 60
Recent posts... (See full thread)
0beron wrote:
Polvane the eraser wrote:
Is it at all possible the guy Bunny is hugging in the flashback is Don King himself?
Given the turn count we were just given, its nigh impossible Don was even alive at that time.
This happened over 7,000 turns ago.

Don's lifespan:
Popped
15 Days later: Became King
Visited every city in the Kingdom (time unknown, let's call it a year to be generous)
Has ruled for 400 turns since his return from the tour.
That makes him VERY young compared to Bunny. So this TV guy can't be Don, or his son for that matter.


No, it's said that:

1. He rarely traveled
2. He'd only taken one grand tour
3. He hadn't left the capital city for 400 turns prior to the battle at Spacerock

That doesn't mean he hadn't left AT ALL other than the grand tour, just that he did it rarely.

Given the apparent depth of his relationships with Bea and Slately, and the entire backstory of two heirs one of whom tried to create a coup, it's unlikely he's only been around a couple years.
I really have to agree that the panty shot detracts from the scene overall. Not only did it knock me right out of the mood the rest of the text/image provided, but the fact that the whole thing is so inherently voyeuristic makes me feel like I'm being required to take part in exploiting the already hurt and miserable. If she'd been wearing lingerie or doing something consciously intended to be sexy it wouldn't have bothered me.

In her own update Bunny referred to Jillian as having "ignobly" defected for love, suggesting she isn't sympathetic to people who've committed her own crime. I wonder if she may have internalized her own punishment as deserved -- "I was exiled because I am Bad." That would make it very dangerous if she clued into what's going on with Maggie.
Xarx wrote:
MrBreaksIt wrote:
Will someone please explain to me why we're all so mad at the Great Minds?

Because they think Groupthink is a good thing, and enforce Thought Control to keep their secrets. Why the hell is it so important to them to Think alike, anyway?

Coming back to the discussion about Signamancy, it must be really difficult for Parson to avoid Thinking Aloud that "Great Minds Think Alike" is an idiom often said in jest and is rarely if ever true.
MrBreaksIt wrote:
Will someone please explain to me why we're all so mad at the Great Minds?


Because the Great Minds are not allies, and this post makes that crystal clear. They are a group that has an agenda with one goal out of many that currently lines up with GK's current mission. Maggie promised more than she could deliver, through no fault of her own, and because of that Parson was fed a bill of goods that was deceiving.

The GMTTA's primary goal is to Protect Thinkamancy. This requires Charlie to be neutralized, but that is not the ONLY goal. It also requires that the secrets of Thinkamancy be kept in the process, because without that, getting rid of Charlie is a moot point. Their mission, their Grand Strategy, is to protect the craft at all costs.

They (grudgingly) admit that they need Parson to neutralize Charlie, but they can't just let him do it any old way. That's Roger's point. Parson might become a bigger problem than Charlie. The existence of Baddies shows exactly how far they will go. It also shows that they might become an enemy in the future, and maybe sooner rather than later.
Housellama wrote:
MrBreaksIt wrote:
Will someone please explain to me why we're all so mad at the Great Minds?


Because the Great Minds are not allies, and this post makes that crystal clear. They are a group that has an agenda with one goal out of many that currently lines up with GK's current mission. Maggie promised more than she could deliver, through no fault of her own, and because of that Parson was fed a bill of goods that was deceiving.

The GMTTA's primary goal is to Protect Thinkamancy. This requires Charlie to be neutralized, but that is not the ONLY goal. It also requires that the secrets of Thinkamancy be kept in the process, because without that, getting rid of Charlie is a moot point. Their mission, their Grand Strategy, is to protect the craft at all costs.

They (grudgingly) admit that they need Parson to neutralize Charlie, but they can't just let him do it any old way. That's Roger's point. Parson might become a bigger problem than Charlie. The existence of Baddies shows exactly how far they will go. It also shows that they might become an enemy in the future, and maybe sooner rather than later.


The more we see of the Great Minds, the more it seems that they operate almost exactly like Charlie. Extremely binding contracts, the use of mental blocks, treating people and their emotions like pawns to be moved or disregarded at their whim... (I leave out the fact that they treat their own personal goal as the most important thing in Erfworld, because everyone in Erfworld acts like that).

Except that Charlie may have allowed Betsy to go to town in Jillian's head, but that was Betsy's choice. Charlie merely didn't interfere, which is not nice but Charlie doesn't pretend to be nice. The Great Minds seem to be happy to Betsy people and not just Charlie them (for want of a better term). They may be worse than Charlie.
We have no idea what Charlie's ultimate motives are, but he is obviously pretty evil.

The Thinkamancers are very LN as a group. They have rules and they follow them, and they have protocols and all that jazz.

I don't think they're really evil by Erfworld standards. They are self-serving, to be sure, but everyone is that; they mostly exist to promulgate their own personal group and figure stuff out (and keep a lot of stuff secret from the world at large).

I suspect that whenever a thinkamancer pops, they immediately contact them to bring them into the fold.

Something else interesting here:

In Erfworld, apparently controlling your facial expression is a function of Eyemancy, and Isaac does not appear to be aware that on Earth, people can simply do this.

That's a pretty dangerous thing not to be aware of if he doesn't recognize that Parson may well be capable of this in ways that Erfworlders are not, and that Parson could use his body language in a deceptive manner while seeming oblivious.
I think we should be careful about branding anyone as 'evil' within Erfworld. Pretty much every side and individual has done things of questionable morality if you compare it to a 'liberal-western' (YMMV on what that actually means) moral structure but Erfworld is an alien and very hostile environment where every side is locked in a perpetual war with the others.

Charlie just deals with this situation differently than other sides. This doesn't make him inherently more 'evil' if anything the reason he draws so much attention is simply because he is brutally effective at dealing with the situation differently from other sides.

I mean one of the more morally questionable sides is Gobwin Knob themselves - they are a very rich side with gems, farms and decryption coupled with a perfect Warlord who has the intelligence and comprehension to potentially break Gobwin Knobs dependency on warring with other sides for additional schmuckers.

Of all the sides that could potentially push themselves above the need for perpetual war is Gobwin Knob but they seem the most intent on plunging themselves deeper into perpetual war.
Titanium Dragon wrote:
Something else interesting here:

In Erfworld, apparently controlling your facial expression is a function of Eyemancy, and Isaac does not appear to be aware that on Earth, people can simply do this.

That's a pretty dangerous thing not to be aware of if he doesn't recognize that Parson may well be capable of this in ways that Erfworlders are not, and that Parson could use his body language in a deceptive manner while seeming oblivious.

I got the impression that for eyemancers it's not simply controlling one's expression, but absolutely controlling it. Every twitch, tic or smile that crosses their face is something they allowed to happen. Other units can try to have a poker face, or bluff another expression, but Eyemancers can spot it immediately, since it comes so naturally to them.

Like, anyone can huck a brick, but archers are the only ones likely to hit, or anyone can add two and two, but mathamancers are much better at it.

An example of what I mean is in Book 2, Text 35, when Wanda has a perfectly good poker face that fools everyone but Jack.
Quote:
Her face was set in stone, or tried to be. Few besides a Foolamancer would have noted that her shoulders had twitched, her nostrils had flared ever so slightly.
Not to bring this up again, but I just realized some Signamancy behind..the panty shot.

One of the secrets of the Thinkamancers is the existence of the G-String, which is a type of underwear, and it is a hint that Bunny gave Prince Ponzi information on (her) G-string, thus giving him a glimpse of her panties.

Of course, Considering that it was a Scheme by Prince Ponzi, what we could call a Ponzi Scheme, he was manipulating her and ended up betraying her as well as The Don, Thus when everything fell apart as those kind of Schemes tend to do. Bunny had nowhere else to go.
0beron wrote:
Second, the reasons for secrecy within the Thinkamancers are more complex than this discussion has given credit for. Someone suggested the Great Minds fear going unemployed if people discover they've been holding back. I say people would FEAR them if they knew the full range of available powers. Frankly this goes for magic in general, because I seriously doubt Thinkamancy is the only discipline that is keeping secrets like this, and if they were than the power of magic is very unbalanced, which doesn't seem right.


I would say it is more that we fear things that can damage our mind most of all, our mind is the only thing in the world we truly control (well, mostly) and from our PoV our mind is the whole world. If you look at some real world "magic" where we can level a mountain and then build huge cities out of it (dirtamancy) or destroy everything in a several kilometers radius (shockamancy) but I think most of us would be more afraid of mind control tech and what it might represent (unprecedented repression, zombification, etc).

In the same way thinkamancy is scary because it manipulates what we think, what we are and does so without us even knowing. Which is much worse than some horrible outward thing that may happen to us like being burned or blown up.


As for the GMTTA, I like that Isaac has made them embrace the scientific method. They could finally start grasping the fundamentals of magic and take control of it much like how Isaac Newton's was one of the pivotal scientists who discerned truth from pseudo-intellectual muck via experiments and set the foundations for modern technology and way of life.

I hate that they choose to hoard that knowledge and so impede any kind of technological revolution or spirit of enlightenment. I hate that they are a cult-like cabal of 1%ers. I hate their liberal use of mindrape, both outright and in more subtle group think/ostracism ways. Even that one redeeming quality is directly countered by one of their faults, they're just bad people.