Book 3 - Page 6

Book 3 - Page 6
Comic - Book 3 - Page 6
Recent posts... (See full thread)
Sturmm wrote:
Durmatagno wrote:
Sturmm wrote:
Couldn't Charlie just increase productivity in a "Feral" hex where Dragons are known to pop? Should work the same way as it does for Sides, Heirs, etc.


He couldn't of because he would have know that the wielder of the Arkenhammer was moving through there to attack Faq, and the Deal of a Lifetime restricts him from doing about anything to harm Faq, including helping those that seek to harm it. If he did it not knowing that would happen, there's a loophole, but then the question is why would he.


Even if he knew, at the time of the casting of the spell he would've been "Helping" feral Dragons, not Stanley. A loophole, yes, but one not restricted by the wording of the Deal of a Lifetime. He may know that Stanley can Tame them, but so long as he didn't make them already tame, and just increased their number...it isn't actually helping any Side.


I've changed my mind on this. I don't believe causing more feral dwagons to pop so that Stanley can tame them on the way to Faq gets through the contract as stated. Of course, we don't know what Erfworld legal conventions are, and we don't actually know the exact wording of the contract - just the wording that the narrator used when describing it and that was from Jillian's perspective as well. All that said, as stated Charlie can not "aid any side in disturbing it". Causing extra dwagons to pop in Stanley's path sure seems like aiding Stanley to me. It certainly wouldn't fly here in Stupidworld. If it's possible for contract terms to be interpreted so narrowly then it would be very difficult to ever draw up a useful contract on any subject of importance.
Davre wrote:
I've changed my mind on this. I don't believe causing more feral dwagons to pop so that Stanley can tame them on the way to Faq gets through the contract as stated. Of course, we don't know what Erfworld legal conventions are, and we don't actually know the exact wording of the contract - just the wording that the narrator used when describing it and that was from Jillian's perspective as well. All that said, as stated Charlie can not "aid any side in disturbing it". Causing extra dwagons to pop in Stanley's path sure seems like aiding Stanley to me. It certainly wouldn't fly here in Stupidworld. If it's possible for contract terms to be interpreted so narrowly then it would be very difficult to ever draw up a useful contract on any subject of importance.

It's more a loophole of timing than anything...because you have to consider that otherwise Charlie wouldn't be able to really do much of anything. At the very moment of spellcasting, making more Dwagons Pop doesn't affect anything one way or another. Will it eventually help Stanley's Side? Perhaps...but it didn't when Charlie took his actions. Assuming, of course, he did so. :p
Well, but interpreted so narrowly, contracts becomes useless.

It sounds like "I'm sorry officer, I didn't kill anyone... the bullets fired out of my gun killed someone! I was entirely innocent, because me pointing the gun at the guy and pulling the trigger didn't harm him, it was the bullets that did. I had nothing to do with it!"
ftl wrote:
Well, but interpreted so narrowly, contracts becomes useless.

It sounds like "I'm sorry officer, I didn't kill anyone... the bullets fired out of my gun killed someone! I was entirely innocent, because me pointing the gun at the guy and pulling the trigger didn't harm him, it was the bullets that did. I had nothing to do with it!"


...That's a terrible comparison. More appropriate would be "I fired at a Target and the guy stepped in the path of the bullet!" The difference between Manslaughter and Murder is intent. The difference between a single word determines a lot, and as such...a Contract can always be manipulated by interpretation if nothing else. If Charlie helps a Side that is not attempting to injure Faq, and that side later joins a Side that -is- attempting to hurt Faq, that doesn't break the Contract. Otherwise he would've broken it already. So helping an unaffiliated side(Dwagons) that later joins a Side attacking Faq(Stanley) doesn't break the contract...he simply couldn't continue any help.
Sturmm wrote:
ftl wrote:
Well, but interpreted so narrowly, contracts becomes useless.

It sounds like "I'm sorry officer, I didn't kill anyone... the bullets fired out of my gun killed someone! I was entirely innocent, because me pointing the gun at the guy and pulling the trigger didn't harm him, it was the bullets that did. I had nothing to do with it!"


...That's a terrible comparison. More appropriate would be "I fired at a Target and the guy stepped in the path of the bullet!" The difference between Manslaughter and Murder is intent. The difference between a single word determines a lot, and as such...a Contract can always be manipulated by interpretation if nothing else. If Charlie helps a Side that is not attempting to injure Faq, and that side later joins a Side that -is- attempting to hurt Faq, that doesn't break the Contract. Otherwise he would've broken it already. So helping an unaffiliated side(Dwagons) that later joins a Side attacking Faq(Stanley) doesn't break the contract...he simply couldn't continue any help.


Doesn't work, not in Stupidworld, anyway. If he helped a side, for completely different reasons, and then some time later that in some way ended up helping a side attacking Faq, that might be different. Causing more ferals to pop aids Stanley. It may also happen to aid another side, but it helps Stanley pretty directly. In other words, I don't think the contract says that he cannot aid a side attacking Faq unless aiding said side also aids some other side.
Davre wrote:
Doesn't work, not in Stupidworld, anyway. If he helped a side, for completely different reasons, and then some time later that in some way ended up helping a side attacking Faq, that might be different. Causing more ferals to pop aids Stanley. It may also happen to aid another side, but it helps Stanley pretty directly. In other words, I don't think the contract says that he cannot aid a side attacking Faq unless aiding said side also aids some other side.

Therein lies the disagreement...and the reason Charlie could use it as a Loophole. You say "It helps Stanley directly." I disagree...the way I see it, it helps the Dwagons. They pop unaligned and untamed. So it doesn't directly help Stanley, or even indirectly help him. What it does is create more Feral Dwagons. If Stanley then tames them...that's when the Dwagons begin helping Stanley, until then, they're not a good or bad thing for Stanley, they're just Feral critters. We can both disagree...but therein lies my point. If there's enough room for disagreement, there's room for a Loophole.
Don't forget that the terms of a contract appear to be enforced by magic, not by legal teams and courts. If Charlie knows his intent is to help a side that is "disturbing" Faq that may be sufficient to trigger the clause in the contract, regardless of if he is directly aiding them.

However, I think that is largely irrelevant. Speeding up units popping (assuming you can even do that for ferals) would likely be Turnamancy. Charlie does not use Turnamancy to our knowledge (he has hire one to speed Archon production), and causing more ferals to pop does not appear to "break a rule". He may be able to prevent a unit from popping that should, or force a unit to pop that shouldn't. But I doubt he could use his Carnymancy to affect the rate feral Dwagons pop, and I also doubt he would risk the security breach of hiring a Barbarian Caster to perform an odd task like increasing the number of feral Dwagons around Gobwin Knob.
There's always room for disagreement. There's a flat earth society, after all. Doesn't mean the disagreement is reasonable. If "room for disagreement" meant there's room for a loophole, there wouldn't be a single contract ever that's enforceable, because there's people out there that can disagree for pages about what the definition of "is" is.

Maybe that's actually true. Maybe no contract with Charlie is enforceable at all if he doesn't want it to be. That could be.
Sturmm wrote:
Davre wrote:
Doesn't work, not in Stupidworld, anyway. If he helped a side, for completely different reasons, and then some time later that in some way ended up helping a side attacking Faq, that might be different. Causing more ferals to pop aids Stanley. It may also happen to aid another side, but it helps Stanley pretty directly. In other words, I don't think the contract says that he cannot aid a side attacking Faq unless aiding said side also aids some other side.

Therein lies the disagreement...and the reason Charlie could use it as a Loophole. You say "It helps Stanley directly." I disagree...the way I see it, it helps the Dwagons. They pop unaligned and untamed. So it doesn't directly help Stanley, or even indirectly help him. What it does is create more Feral Dwagons. If Stanley then tames them...that's when the Dwagons begin helping Stanley, until then, they're not a good or bad thing for Stanley, they're just Feral critters. We can both disagree...but therein lies my point. If there's enough room for disagreement, there's room for a Loophole.


If you do something that helps someone, that's called helping or aiding. Even if you use a proxy. As I said earlier, whether or not the proxy benefits is immaterial. Let's say that Charlie caused the dwagons to pop. This popping helped Stanley. Ergo, Charlie helped Stanley.

The apparent gap of time doesn't do anything. Who said that help has to be instantaneous? If I send you a check in the mail, does it matter if it takes you a few days to get it? Or as a better analogy, if I see you walking down a path, hurry ahead, and drop some cash where you'll find it isn't that helping you? (Granted that analogy is missing the proxy of the barbarian side, but I'm just dealing with the time element here).

I mean, that's just my opinion. Who knows how Rob sees it? And I'm totally onboard with the idea of Charlie being one to exploit loopholes in contracts, I just don't see this particular case as valid.
Daefaroth wrote:
Don't forget that the terms of a contract appear to be enforced by magic, not by legal teams and courts. If Charlie knows his intent is to help a side that is "disturbing" Faq that may be sufficient to trigger the clause in the contract, regardless of if he is directly aiding them.


That's the thing, we don't know the actual workings of contracts in Erf, really. I'm arguing based on my opinion of how it should be. Personally, I believe that using a proxy doesn't get him out of the contract, not if the intent is the same. We don't know if it's as you describe or if it's more of a three wishes from a genie with a JD sort of thing. I'm leaning towards the former because the latter seems unworkable for all but the simplest contracts.

One caveat that just occurred to me. Maybe the contracts in Erf are based only on their literal wording and it is reputation that keeps sides from cheating the spirit of their contracts all the time. If that's the case, and there are some Stupidworld analogues of that, then I'm sure Charlie won't hesitate to do something like that if he can get away with none the wiser.

Daefaroth wrote:
However, I think that is largely irrelevant. Speeding up units popping (assuming you can even do that for ferals) would likely be Turnamancy. Charlie does not use Turnamancy to our knowledge (he has hire one to speed Archon production), and causing more ferals to pop does not appear to "break a rule". He may be able to prevent a unit from popping that should, or force a unit to pop that shouldn't. But I doubt he could use his Carnymancy to affect the rate feral Dwagons pop, and I also doubt he would risk the security breach of hiring a Barbarian Caster to perform an odd task like increasing the number of feral Dwagons around Gobwin Knob.


I think if the stakes are high enough, and getting rid of Faq was worth a lot to Charlie, he would be willing to use a contractor from the MK. He would just have to pay a lot and use a very strict contract with a similar compulsion to Deal of a Lifetime. All though you'd have to be either pretty dumb or pretty desperate to help Charlie do something that you know he really doesn't want anyone else to know about.