Book 3 - Page 45

Book 3 - Page 45
Comic - Book 3 - Page 45
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TheMutant wrote:
Good discussion here, but what I'm most curious about is if the Charlie-Archon can somehow tell that Lilith is lying about having no love for Charlie (thinkamancy?) or if she just can't conceive of a Charlie-popped Archon that doesn't care for him any longer, even Decrypted and on a different side. o: hm.


I think it's Dateamancers that are supposed to be able to tell a unit's loyalty. Though no unit can see the Love stat, so in that respect I don't think Quinn can tell if Lilith is sincere or not.
oslecamo2 temp wrote:
Arky wrote:
Tramennis is not in such a good situation that he can afford to be unnecessarily provoking more enemies, and that wouldn't be in character for him anyway- he's a diplomat by trade.


On the contrary, royally screwing his own position (pun intended) is extremely in character for Trems.


We can debate his competence- to me he's an intelligent guy who was living in a bubble but unlike Slately got to survive the bursting of the bubble and unlike Ansom got to survive the bursting without being killed and decrypted- but it's still not in character to just wave a red rag to the bull when he knows Jetstone's position is dire. He could easily have put this offer to Lilith without Charlie's Archons present, and if he was trying to strongarm Charlie that would make the most sense- if the offer fails, Charlie doesn't see it. If the offer succeeds, it can be presented to Charlie as a fait accompli.

Everything about this setup suggests to me that it is theatre for Lilith's benefit. Perhaps it is even Charlie's idea.
Spicymancer wrote:
I think it's Dateamancers that are supposed to be able to tell a unit's loyalty. Though no unit can see the Love stat, so in that respect I don't think Quinn can tell if Lilith is sincere or not.

Seeing unit stats is not required: all Quinn_Archon needs to do is judge whether the subject is lying, which some archons can do because Natural Thinkamancy. Of course the fact that Quinn says something does not make it so; assuming the signamancy reflects the reality, I infer that Quinn_Archon saying it does not make it so. In other words, Q_A might simply be scandalized by Lil's statement, as suggested previously.
When the Archons were abandoned by Wanda, they cried for Charlie. They still have some love for him, even if their loyalty to the pliers is set to max.
In Book 2 Prologue 24, the Decrypted Archons treat GK warlords as clients of Charlie who paid for their ultra-high-premium option to serve as if the Archons' Duty is to their side.

Based on the discussion in this strip, I suspect that absolute loyalty to owners of Arkentools is a quality of the respective Arkentools; i.e. the Archons' unconditional love for Charlie is of the same nature as the Decrypted's unconditional love for Wanda. The Decrypted Archons are thus conflicted and try to explain away their cognitive dissonance with business-speak. (Incidentally, it seems Parson never got to talking to them about their feelings, like he planned.) What's important is that these feelings are externally imposed on the units by the Arkentools, not intrinsic to their nature.
Windscion wrote:
Spicymancer wrote:
I think it's Dateamancers that are supposed to be able to tell a unit's loyalty. Though no unit can see the Love stat, so in that respect I don't think Quinn can tell if Lilith is sincere or not.

Seeing unit stats is not required: all Quinn_Archon needs to do is judge whether the subject is lying, which some archons can do because Natural Thinkamancy. Of course the fact that Quinn says something does not make it so; assuming the signamancy reflects the reality, I infer that Quinn_Archon saying it does not make it so. In other words, Q_A might simply be scandalized by Lil's statement, as suggested previously.


Mostly I was aiming for a "Quinn Archon doesn't have the required magic discipline to know without a shadow of a doubt", not that she was incapable of forming an opinion on the matter.

lucidfox wrote:
In Book 2 Prologue 24, the Decrypted Archons treat GK warlords as clients of Charlie who paid for their ultra-high-premium option to serve as if the Archons' Duty is to their side.

Based on the discussion in this strip, I suspect that absolute loyalty to owners of Arkentools is a quality of the respective Arkentools; i.e. the Archons' unconditional love for Charlie is of the same nature as the Decrypted's unconditional love for Wanda. The Decrypted Archons are thus conflicted and try to explain away their cognitive dissonance with business-speak. (Incidentally, it seems Parson never got to talking to them about their feelings, like he planned.) What's important is that these feelings are externally imposed on the units by the Arkentools, not intrinsic to their nature.


The discussion between the three Friends archon's is pretty definitive in this regards. They all still admire Charlie, but post decryption they're starting to see him as fallible, and generally are more loyal to Wanda. I mean, their admiration is pretty apparent considering how much his culture still informs their worldview-business practices.
Keighvin1 wrote:
Small point Turtle, Jack said that they would not bargain fairly, not Ossomer. I'm not even sure the two of them ever spoke at all.


Point.

I was under the impression that Jack was relaying what Ossomer had told him, rather like the person on the phone repeating what someone else in the room said for the benefit of someone on the other end of the line. Note that Jack also explained that Wanda had insisted foolamancy was not necessary to protect their little huddle to Parson the same way.

I have a hard time believing Parson would take Jack as an authority on Jetstone's behavior when he had Ossomer on hand, and he was receiving a report on Jetstone's likely reaction to the current situation.
MonteCristo wrote:
Turtlewing wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:


Problem there is that GK doesn't have a good record for standing for Trem's ideals either... And heck,Last time Trem considered making a deal with GK, they took advantage of his patience to turn around a crucial battle that ended badly for Jetstone. Kinda why you should take Parley's seriously; you break parley not just once, but twice and it becomes impossible for people to trust you.


To be fair that parley wasn't going to work. Tram was planning on demanding GK turn over Wanda and the pliers, and thought that he could negotiate the return of the rest of the force for a short peace on the basis that it would be better for GK than losing everything and still being at war.

Further Parson was advised by Ossomer (until recently prince and chief warlord of Jetstone) that Jetstone would intentionally offer unacceptable terms as a way of rubbing in their victory and was unlikely to parley in good faith.

Tram should be savvy enough to realize (in retrospect) that until the dwagons started to fall (at which point GK was committed to the attack) he wasn't capable of coming to an agreement with Parson because the one thing he thought was assured (that GK would only get back what units he chose to allow them) was false. Parson would n ot ahve agreed to any bargain that Tram could have made.


Thing is, Parson did not know what Trem would offer, and Trem did not know what would be considered unacceptable. Trem CONSIDERED demanding they hand over Wanda, but he was open minded, and may have settled for less. Heck he could have even imagined GK being a future alliance partner. He wasn't planning on offering them some BS ceremonial surrender terms, but a REAL and honest deal... in the end, Trem wanted to deal with them fairly and Parson took advantage of his parley as a way to turn the tide of the battle. Heck the ONLY reason the dwagon havest worked is because Trem gave them the time to do something instead of just attacking them as soon as he could. Spacerock fell in a major part because of that attempt to Parley. This should send the message to Trem that Parson is NOT someone he can trust; much like Charlie.


Tram did not have a free hand to offer whatever he wanted (Slately had ultimate authority, and Jetstone had obligations to it's allies, and economic limitations) nor did he have an accurate picture of the tactical situation (he thought GK had no capability to take Spacerock or prevent his archers from croaking the entire attack force).

What's more, Parson couldn't enlighten Tram as to the tactical situation without losing his remaining tactical option (the surprise off-turn zone transition).

The parley was doomed even if Tram and Parson had both negotiated in good faith.

Parson's position would have had to be that Tram has to make concessions 'because reasons', in spite of Tram having the capability to unilaterally croak the contested units with no losses of his own. Tram wouldn't accept that, and would at least demand GK provide adequate compensation for any concessions (under the assumption that the entire attack force is dead and the pliers spils of war if Tram wants them to be). And what does GK have of equal value to the Pliers, that Parson could trade away? The Hammer? The tool would never allow that. Their entire force of decrypted archons? At that point Parson doesn't even know if they can turn, and Tram certainly wouln't want a force of Archons that might still be loyal to an enemy caster. A boatload of shmuckers? possibly, but against a priceless archentool? probably not sweet enough.
kalil wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:
Thing is, Parson did not know what Trem would offer, and Trem did not know what would be considered unacceptable. Trem CONSIDERED demanding they hand over Wanda, but he was open minded, and may have settled for less. Heck he could have even imagined GK being a future alliance partner. He wasn't planning on offering them some BS ceremonial surrender terms, but a REAL and honest deal... in the end, Trem wanted to deal with them fairly and Parson took advantage of his parley as a way to turn the tide of the battle. Heck the ONLY reason the dwagon havest worked is because Trem gave them the time to do something instead of just attacking them as soon as he could. Spacerock fell in a major part because of that attempt to Parley. This should send the message to Trem that Parson is NOT someone he can trust; much like Charlie.

Lets not forget that the parley was immediately preceded by Spacerock using a 'dirty trick' to literally steal time itself from GK. Parson had just witnessed his forces severely underestimate his enemies cunning as well as its power. He had pretty good reason to take the opening offered to him, and to not trust his opponent.


You forgot to mention that this particular dirty trick happened during a Parley of all things. So GK wasn't even the first on that day to break a Parley!

And later on the same turn, Jillian ignores a request for parley and attacks. Probably not exactly bad (she didn't accept the Parley) but still...

From Parson's point of view, he'd already been screwed over twice during Parleys in that turn. So about time to return the favour!
... (RNG#) Points to Radagast.

I had been watching this thread, and that is something I had not really noticed. Parley is (and even in reality, always was) just a request for conversation. Sure "Pirates Code" and so on and so forth for Stupidworld, but on Erf it seems to be a word with little or no power. My take on the situation is that any parley could easily be a trap, and only the really trusting ever accept them without countermeasures.

After all, this world is built on war and killing. The only way to secure your side is to find a way to gain more moneys for more units, and that almost always involves expanding to a certain point (Point of diminishing returns: aka, not totally explained yet). Expanding means taking cities. That probably means a war and a campaign against an enemy even after the initial gains have been received.

After all, they want those cities too, probably for the same reasons.

EDIT: So much grammar.