Book 3 - Page 37

Book 3 - Page 37
Comic - Book 3 - Page 37
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-D- wrote:
It's no more intellectually honest that claiming that things other Casters have claimed is true is in some way incomplete data. By that notion maybe Grandicosmic strings are just an illusion, made so Thinkamancers can accept the reality in way they can comprehend.

Also it's no more evidenced than by what other characters, like Wanda, Delphie and Marie have told us. For all we know those strings are just illusions/delusions of Thinkamancers unable to accept the whole truth.


Feh. Humans can't immediately see the curve of space-time or how it's warped by gravity. I'd rather not get into why perceived shapes are arbitrary tokens for external stimuli as evidenced by synesthesia.

There are idiot savants that can perceive numbers as depth and and shapes and thereby use some rather strange mathematical notations for that reason.

It's an interesting subject of discussion, but I'd rather not get into it because we're now onto epistemology. It's sufficient to say that you use the evidence to form a theory that best explains all current facts and then revise forward with new information. Methodological naturalism and all that.

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Example:
Grandiocosmic strings? Ways for Casters to comprehend literal computer Strings of the simulation they are running on. Maybe it's a collective delusion, meant to prevent them from discovering the truth (a la Matrix the movie).
Zero plane? The Matrix (as in array of array, not the movie) that Mathamancers can comprehend.
Fate? Quest system and invariants in the Zero Plane Matrix.


Oh, that zero plane. Actually, it isn't clear whether that's actually a mathematical metaphor or an actual thing related to Mathamancer senses, since a character doesn't literally come out and say that this is something that they perceive or explain as a real thing they manipulate. Mathematicians use three dimensional and even four-plus dimensional spaces to graph out functions all the time. (And that's exactly as counter-intuitive to visualize as you might think.)

But for the sake of argument, that'd be interesting information to receive nonetheless.

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They are also quite ironically, subject to large amounts of it. Charlie claims that you can fight Fate and he believes he is winning. Parson was pretty much crushed by hands of Fate to prevent him from leaving Erfworld.


Cite the first. If you're referring to the jester, then that's not Fate. At all. That's Jillian's fighting spirit. But in any case, I don't consider Wanda's opinion on Fate unbiased. Delphie's is just a shade less suspicious.

As to the second, visual effects are not real. You don't literally see a QWERN! sound effect. And it's very likely tied to the Summon Spell keeping the conspiracy on track.

Parson wanted to blame the compulsion on "Fate" but we also know that Thinkamancers would have to be involved with the spell on him and that it has already directly provided him the Sword of Ruthlessness and math bracer to keep the plan on track. Parson was angsting hard, and at the time, he also didn't know about the conspiracy.

"Fate" is literally the name of a type of magic. But whether that actually means there's a malicious cosmic force making people do stuff is an entirely separate question.

I suspect that Predictamancers were somehow using prophecy to plan around knowable events of the future, then plugging the gaps with other forms of magic based on those known variables.

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Are you saying that Stanley used his powers unconsciously to spawn a large amount of Dwagons in mountain hex, that were several hexes away from him, so that they could deal with a problem that he wasn't yet aware AND that he never again used that ability (even sub consciously) ever again, even when his boop was in danger of croaking. That is some time travel level boop up in plot consistency.


What are you even talking about? Link me to what you're talking about, because I don't remember that happening.

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Also, by that notion Parson is a powerful Carnymancer, and entering MK and breaking swear filter is him using his abilities.


Or the Thinkamancy magics of the Summon spell was forcing him to fit in.

I also already gave you an alternate hypothesis for why he can enter MK that's based on, you know, actual known facts about the disposition of MK casters instead. I'm skeptical that Bea just vaporized by walking through the portal and I wonder if she basically pulled a death-by-cop to MK casters. (Everybody first instinct was to pull a wand on Parson. Or to call for enforcers. But they're always uniformly cat-piss mad.)

In any case, nobody explains how these portals work. That's a significant gap in knowledge.

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Right and Delphie leaving a note for Jillian is an extremely accurate guess. There is a thing between accurate and downright scary. I mean it's technically possible that a pen near you will jump up into air and stab you in the face. However when that happens, it's time to start believing in miracles.


That's not even worth dignifying with a response. That's the very definition of superstition and credulity.

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I'm not familiar with Dune, but if prophecies only apply to people that heard them then that is one way to prove they are different from Erf's. Jillian managed to find a letter by Delphie left for her. This implies a large scope in prediction.


Well of course, prophecies affect people who hear them. Paradoxically, that can't affect the outcome of the prophecy because it wouldn't be accurate anymore. So it has to self-correct for that.

I can tell you the velocity and caliber of the bullet shot at you and who shot it. Only you receive the information when it'd impossible to do anything about it because it's already on the way to your head. Or somebody else receives the info and is too far away to do anything about it. Or they were ignorant about certain vital details because that just wasn't covered in my prophecy.

If one hit fails, then why would anybody committed to the assassination fail to send a second assassin or backups? Or shoot a second bullet? Whew! I cheated Fate that first time! You can go mad with hubris for a time, but that's extremely foolhardy. You're not suddenly not free of exercising common sense. (Wanda lets Stanley burn down Faq.)

This, I suspect, is why Predictamancers are cryptic and keep secrets. People either go mad with a feeling of unearned invulnerability or stress the fuck out. Neither of which are good anyway in those situations where you can't see the future (i.e. common sense).

If I give you this information when it would be meaningful, it ceases to be accurate. The wave function collapses and there is no prophecy.

DVL wrote:
You think that the reality of Erf's magic is different than depicted and exist in some idealized world, that perfectly describes all Magic/Erf related things. That we are stuck in Plato's cave looking at shadows while true reality is outside of the cave (a stand in for reality).


Nope. That's you. That's Erfworlders.

If I say Carnymancy, then anything that might vaguely have to do with breaking rules must automatically be manifestations of a single principle. Heck, you're even the one arguing that magic is run on the power of semantics. Which is philosophical idealism if I've ever heard it described.

Your claim is that idea behind the word "Carny" is more important than the phenomena they describe. Everybody who breaks rules everywhere is a manifestation of that reality. They're the shadows cast by the Idea. (God, I hate philosophical idealism.)

That's way the opposite of my position. The idea is just the description of reality. It's a pale nothing. It's an imagined contrivance. Carnymancy describes a limited set of rule-breaking. Since we don't know which rules it does break. Certain magical ones that only casters care about.
If I might make a suggestion:

You two are not making any progress and this debate is feeling a little cyclical. Evidence suggests that neither of you is going to convince the other of his point. You simply see it differently. Maybe agreeing to disagree is not a bad idea.

Step out of the revolving door.
DVL wrote:

Feh. Humans can't immediately see the curve of space-time or how it's warped by gravity. I'd rather not get into why perceived shapes are arbitrary tokens for external stimuli as evidenced by synesthesia.

Human world wasn't created by giant Elvis look alikes either. Next.


DVL wrote:

Quote:
They are also quite ironically, subject to large amounts of it. Charlie claims that you can fight Fate and he believes he is winning. Parson was pretty much crushed by hands of Fate to prevent him from leaving Erfworld.


Cite the first. If you're referring to the jester, then that's not Fate. At all. That's Jillian's fighting spirit. But in any case, I don't consider Wanda's opinion on Fate unbiased. Delphie's is just a shade less suspicious.

That part about Charlie's is my suspicion, based on the fact that Carnymancy is a discipline that defies Fate (Dig Doug, Jojo's diatribe). I think he is willing to let Parson go off the hook and keep Jillian because he thinks he is still on top of it. I was about to remove it, but I forgot I wrote that part.

Delphie's character was broken, her plan to keep her side and allow Wanda to go to Haffaton was ruined. She had zero reason to lie and nothing she said was counter-claimed by another Predictamancer or Caster.

DVL wrote:
As to the second, visual effects are not real. You don't literally see a QWERN! sound effect. And it's very likely tied to the Summon Spell keeping the conspiracy on track.

By that notion Wanda/Maggie's trip in headspace is equally dubious. In fact this whole comic could be replaced by black rectangle and it would be just as informative.

From meta narative, it's obvious that these things are Rob's way of doing a little wink and saying look at this tidbit. You refusing to look from that perspective is laughable.

DVL wrote:
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Are you saying that Stanley used his powers unconsciously to spawn a large amount of Dwagons in mountain hex, that were several hexes away from him, so that they could deal with a problem that he wasn't yet aware AND that he never again used that ability (even sub consciously) ever again, even when his boop was in danger of croaking. That is some time travel level boop up in plot consistency.


What are you even talking about? Link me to what you're talking about, because I don't remember that happening.

That's what you said... There is nothing to link.

-D- wrote:
And we know with high certainty that Fate has some influence on events - see Olive's evasion of attacks, Parson getting buried by flaming rubble, Dwagons appearing in abnormally large numbers before Stanley went to FAQ, etc.

DVL wrote:
Stanley has a powerful Tool. He just wasn't using it to its maximum potential.

-D- wrote:
ಠ_ಠ Wat.

Are you saying that Stanley used his powers unconsciously to spawn a large amount of Dwagons in mountain hex

DVL wrote:
What are you even talking about? Link me


It happened in this thread, this is the chain of things you've implied.
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DVL wrote:
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Also, by that notion Parson is a powerful Carnymancer, and entering MK and breaking swear filter is him using his abilities.

Or the Thinkamancy magics of the Summon spell was forcing him to fit in.

So far we only saw a single discipline be able to allow something forbidden to pass through MK portal. It wasn't Thinkamancy. Hint, hint: It was Carnymancy[1].

[1]http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/2

DVL wrote:
That's not even worth dignifying with a response.

Neither is this:

DVL wrote:
I'm skeptical that Bea just vaporized by walking through the portal and I wonder if she basically pulled a death-by-cop to MK casters..

Now excuse me while I try to recalibrate my cranium to your cognitive level:
*HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *CRIES* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *WHIMPER* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK*

@CarniDollamancer: U speakz good idea. No more lore discussion. No. The blissful ignornce. It's gona. My sanity is back! Gotta keep it at bay.
*HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK*
-D- wrote:
DVL wrote:
I'm skeptical that Bea just vaporized by walking through the portal and I wonder if she basically pulled a death-by-cop to MK casters..

Now excuse me while I try to recalibrate my cranium to your cognitive level:
*HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *CRIES* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *WHIMPER* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK*

@CarniDollamancer: U speakz good idea. No more lore discussion. No. The blissful ignornce. It's gona. My sanity is back! Gotta keep it at bay.
*HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK*


This whole sequence made me laugh. The whimpers and cries are what made it. If my signature was not busy, I would change it.
Oh, man, what a mess. Stop mocking me when you've provided evidence in support of me and not yourself. But I'll get to that.

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Human world wasn't created by giant Elvis look alikes either. Next.


Yes and somebody else raised that point. It doesn't mean that Titans are omniscient, omnipotent or had a specific plan in mind for Erf. A lot of characters are specifically dubious of the claim that there's anybody with a divine mandate.

Lord Crush is turned off of Royalism that he simply goes by Lord.
Charlie thinks that Toolism is a self-written narrative.
Popular opinion of Transylvito values meritocracy over Royalty.
Tramennis is a religious existentialist.

If there's some providence or predetermined plan in place by the Titans, a lot of people are of the opinion that it simply does not exist.

The existence of a god pretty much proves nothing because it's unrelated to our topic of discussion.

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That part about Charlie's is my suspicion, based on the fact that Carnymancy is a discipline that defies Fate (Dig Doug, Jojo's diatribe). I think he is willing to let Parson go off the hook and keep Jillian because he thinks he is still on top of it. I was about to remove it, but I forgot I wrote that part.


So Jojo's testimony about Carnymancy is reflective of Charlie's opinions about Fate? That's a stretch and you know it.

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By that notion Wanda/Maggie's trip in headspace is equally dubious. In fact this whole comic could be replaced by black rectangle and it would be just as informative.


Why? The Summon Spell is demonstrably real. It has demonstrably given physical objects to Parson.
What makes Maggie's and Wanda's caster senses dubious?

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From meta narative, it's obvious that these things are Rob's way of doing a little wink and saying look at this tidbit. You refusing to look from that perspective is laughable.


You do realize there's a difference between Fate as magic versus Fate as destiny right? Because you don't seem to grasp that.

I'm also hardly the first to see the visual/sound effects as being figurative or non-real effects for the sake of the comic.

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Are you saying that Stanley used his powers unconsciously to spawn a large amount of Dwagons in mountain hex, that were several hexes away from him, so that they could deal with a problem that he wasn't yet aware AND that he never again used that ability (even sub consciously) ever again, even when his boop was in danger of croaking. That is some time travel level boop up in plot consistency.


You're being a silly goose. Don't put words in my mouth.
Earlier, I was referring to Parsons plan to scout for Dwagons and had misread you.

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And we know with high certainty that Fate has some influence on events - see Olive's evasion of attacks, Parson getting buried by flaming rubble, Dwagons appearing in abnormally large numbers before Stanley went to FAQ, etc.


I hadn't remembered that detail before honestly.

Enough coincidences happen all the time then it's bound to happen to somebody.
Also wouldn't surprise me that those mountains were lousy with dwagons or they just happened to congregate for other reasons.

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So far we only saw a single discipline be able to allow something forbidden to pass through MK portal. It wasn't Thinkamancy. Hint, hint: It was Carnymancy[1].

[1]http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/2


*sigh* Look, if you're not going to see that I'm referring to the Summon Spell forcing ruthlessness on Parson while putting a swear filter on his language being Thinkamancy, then you're just not even being honest anymore. I wasn't talking about the portals there.

Your source doesn't even support your claim. You see a tri-mancer link between Isaac, Maggie and Ace creating a new unit. You see them send that unit through a Portal, but somehow . . . Parson dunnit by Carnymancy?

At this point, you should be critical about your assumptions about how portals work. Not pretending that you have the high ground.

The portal doesn't destroy nonliving objects. Which seems to be Parson's hypothesis because he moves corpses through it. And now he's testing it with the golem.

DVL wrote:
I'm skeptical that Bea just vaporized by walking through the portal and I wonder if she basically pulled a death-by-cop to MK casters..


Okay I was wrong about that. But I'm fine with that since you just shot yourself in the foot prior.

---

It's becoming a running theme with you that you assume knowledge that you don't have.
- You infer things about Charlie's opinions of Fate based on the opinions of Jojo. It's simple. Cite me an example of where Charlie mentions Fate.
- You infer that sending a toy soldier through a portal is Carnymancy. Pretty much based on no evidence.

EDIT:
I've been rereading Dove's description of Carnymancy. Interesting, to say the least. Because she actually never states that Carnymancy is a magic for challenging Fate. She stops short of actually saying that.

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The Carnymancer shrugged a little. “I‘m not sure. Cheating Fate is a very tricky business. Predictions are pretty robust, you know? It might not take actual Carnymancy to undo it, but more just ‘thinking like a Carnymancer.‘ But yeah, I‘ve got a few ideas. I‘d be more than happy to share them with you, if you hire me.”


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She leaned in a bit, and Digdoug struggled to keep his gaze above her chin. “You need your books cooked. That is definitely Carnymancy. Hire me tonight, and if their Moneymancer goes away satisfied tomorrow, I‘ll take five hundred off the top, plus food and upkeep for two days. Deal?”
Just an idle speculation:

I anticipate that Parson will at some point use Charlie's spell to return to StupidWorld -- probably to save his life as he attempted to do at SpaceRock. However, once returning to StupidWorld, he will travel to Kansas, find the ArkenShoes which Judy brought back with her and return to ErfWorld on his own terms without any of the restrictions of the original summoning spell.
DVL wrote:
You see a tri-mancer link between Isaac, Maggie and Ace creating a new unit. You see them send that unit through a Portal, but somehow . . . Parson dunnit by Carnymancy?
The trick wasn't sending the plastic soldier through the portal the first time. The trick was sending it back. Since the soldier isn't a caster, it should disband instead of being able to return to the Magic Kingdom, but somehow it did return, and I think that might indicate that Carnymancy can make it possible for non-casters to enter the Magic Kingdom, unless something more tricky happened, like the soldier that returned was a copy that never left the Magic Kingdom.
Lilwik wrote:
DVL wrote:
You see a tri-mancer link between Isaac, Maggie and Ace creating a new unit. You see them send that unit through a Portal, but somehow . . . Parson dunnit by Carnymancy?
The trick wasn't sending the plastic soldier through the portal the first time. The trick was sending it back. Since the soldier isn't a caster, it should disband instead of being able to return to the Magic Kingdom, but somehow it did return, and I think that might indicate that Carnymancy can make it possible for non-casters to enter the Magic Kingdom, unless something more tricky happened, like the soldier that returned was a copy that never left the Magic Kingdom.

We don't actually know that golems can't enter the Magic Kingdom, I think (reference?), and also don't know if banned units are allowed to leave the Magic Kingdom (still a portal transfer) which means that the golem returning to Parson is at this point not definitively implausible compared to sending the golem out in the first place.
Silversought wrote:
We don't actually know that golems can't enter the Magic Kingdom, I think (reference?), and also don't know if banned units are allowed to leave the Magic Kingdom.
That was sufficiently settled for me in Book 3, Page 2.

Parson: How was it able to come back through the portal?
Ace: I don't know, but it did.

That's pretty strong evidence that portals usually don't allow golems to come back through, and therefore banned units can leave the Magic Kingdom. There is a slim possibility that they were talking about Charlie preventing the golem from returning, or that it shouldn't have been able to return when that is against its orders, but they weren't expecting Charlie to even know about the golem and it's odd to talk about a unit being unable to go against orders.
Lilwik wrote:
Silversought wrote:
We don't actually know that golems can't enter the Magic Kingdom, I think (reference?), and also don't know if banned units are allowed to leave the Magic Kingdom.
That was sufficiently settled for me in Book 3, Page 2.

Parson: How was it able to come back through the portal?
Ace: I don't know, but it did.

That's pretty strong evidence that portals usually don't allow golems to come back through, and therefore banned units can leave the Magic Kingdom. There is a slim possibility that they were talking about Charlie preventing the golem from returning, or that it shouldn't have been able to return when that is against its orders, but they weren't expecting Charlie to even know about the golem and it's odd to talk about a unit being unable to go against orders.



I think the orders comment is actually pretty plausible, but I see the idea about the golem and portals. That does imply that Parson's forces can depart into any capital they want. XD