Book 3 - Page 321

Book 3 - Page 321
Comic - Book 3 - Page 321
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Sorry Marie, your croakamancer is in another Capital.
Metallicat wrote:
Micate wrote:
Not sure what people are speculating on regarding Pineapple-Isaac vs Doll-Isaac, but it's become my impression that the reason for the split was essentially so they could remote-link up using the heartstring still tying the G-string of Isaac (in doll-isaac) to the body of Isaac (Big Think/Pineapple-Isaac), specifically to bring Wanda and her Pliers together at a distance. To do this, The Doll and Body need to be separated (And regardless of intentions, BT wouldn't have made the doll if they didn't have an explicitly different task for the doll to perform that required Isaac be split into the two pieces).


Doll-Isaac may not be aware of what BigThink is doing. But we've seen that BT is aware of many things ,like Parson's plans and conversation. It only makes sense that DI and Wanda's conversation is part of their plan too.

Since Wanda wouldnt link up with BT, this gets them as much as they can from her. While letting them get on with the rest of their plan.


Probably for the best. If they linked up with her, the ability to cut their own strings might have been too tempting. =X
Metallicat wrote:
Me wrote:
...


Doll-Isaac may not be aware of what BigThink is doing. But we've seen that BT is aware of many things ,like Parson's plans and conversation. It only makes sense that DI and Wanda's conversation is part of their plan too.

Since Wanda wouldnt link up with BT, this gets them as much as they can from her. While letting them get on with the rest of their plan.


I definitely agree that Doll-Isaac doesn't know about BT's plan; he was a wind-up-doll put into motion to do what he needed to do because Thinkamancers (especially in that deep of a trance state) can extrapolate (resisting hard the urge to use the word 'predict' here and elsewhere...) how people will act in given situations, especially when the person to be extrapolated is already a part of the trance-state. My main point is that the end-goal of this doll will almost certainly NOT have it re-unite with its original body until events have been resolved.

That said, BT might not have extrapolated Charlie's involvement and the dirtamancers actually breaching bedrock/interrupting Wanda and her team. The Doll might be reacting to unknown circumstances, and the default 'emergency protocol' might be to reunite with the body ASAP. Or ... if I am right, to skip ahead to the endgame situation that we have yet to extrapolate ourselves (wherever Wanda is Predicted to go instead of ICFYS).
Micate wrote:
Thinkamancers (especially in that deep of a trance state) can extrapolate (resisting hard the urge to use the word 'predict' here and elsewhere...) how people will act in given situations, especially when the person to be extrapolated is already a part of the trance-state.

The word you're looking for is Decide. The Great Minds loved to Decide things, with the capital D. In their arrogance, they Decided that once they had made a Decision, it was guaranteed to be right. They never recognized their own fallibility.
Micate wrote:
Metallicat wrote:
Me wrote:
...

Doll-Isaac may not be aware of what BigThink is doing. But we've seen that BT is aware of many things ,like Parson's plans and conversation. It only makes sense that DI and Wanda's conversation is part of their plan too.

Since Wanda wouldnt link up with BT, this gets them as much as they can from her. While letting them get on with the rest of their plan.

I definitely agree that Doll-Isaac doesn't know about BT's plan; he was a wind-up-doll put into motion to do what he needed to do because Thinkamancers (especially in that deep of a trance state) can extrapolate (resisting hard the urge to use the word 'predict' here and elsewhere...) how people will act in given situations, especially when the person to be extrapolated is already a part of the trance-state. My main point is that the end-goal of this doll will almost certainly NOT have it re-unite with its original body until events have been resolved.

I'm going to respectfully disagree on these points. In re-reading the text I noticed the line spoken by IsaacAF to Wanda: "We're almost finished." To me, this suggests that IsaacAF IS aware of both Big Think's Plan (to awaken Tutelaries in all active capitals) as well as Big Think's progress-to-completion status.

While Big Think (BT) was bedrock digging in the MK, the juice cost of status thinkagrams between IsaacAF and BT are minimal - same hex, 1/2 cost to each party b/c they're both Thinkamancers. There's no reason why they wouldn't be periodically communicating. IsaacAF's objection to sending a thinkagram to Parson was all about the high juice cost due to being "beyond the Magic Kingdom" and (inferred) not having a Thinkamancer on the other end to catch and share the cost.

It also makes SENSE that IsaacAF is staying in contact with BT to coordinate efforts. IsaacAF states in pg 279 that BT left him with "a choice of missions to pursue." Clearly, IsaacAF's mission is finding a way for Isaac to live past his current Snafu'd state. Which requires Wanda and the Arkenpliers, and her knowledge of Maxwell's Lion-Doll. Which requires BT to make good on their promise to Wanda of "assistance" (also pg 279), both in exchange for the Lion-Doll intel as well as breaking the Spacerock collar to facilitate reuniting Wanda with the 'Pliers. Which requires BT to complete their primary objective 1st (awakening Tutelaries), before non-mission critical activities.

So my read is that it is a worthwhile expenditure of juice for IsaacAF to check in with BT on tutelary-mission progress so that IsaacAF can fulfill its primary mission, which is keeping Wanda on track to reunite with the 'Pliers and consummate the inferred bargain they made in pg 287/288. (Wanda croaking, decrypting, and releasing Isaac in exchange for help repatriating Lilith & Co at the Dirtamansion).

What's more interesting to me is how that line - "We're almost finished" - timestamps the text portion of this update as:
* Just prior to update pg 317, where Big Think is shown breaking Spacerock's portal column (having completed its primary mission)
* Just prior to update pg 317, where Parson is shown arriving in the portal room to explain himself to Stanley (so as he was running down the stairs....which connects us to....)
* Some point in update pg 311, where most notably the outcome of the Jed/Shirley/HueHue Source conversation is "Charlie is in trouble with his momma"
* Some point in update pg 311, where Parson has sent ammo to Sky via Bonnie's epic "Hat!"
* Some point in update pg 311, where Benny has left the room to find the Gun-rampaging Warladies
* Concurrent to pg 318, where Dirtamancers are completing their last block of dig-down through bedrock AND where Marie and Templeton are tête-à-tête

So the final action panel, where Wanda & Co are reacting to Joe Dirt falling from the roof is taking place at the same time as:
* Update pg 313/314, Maggie's Dateamancy Awakening and the Makaleka blowing Bill's mind
* Update pg 316, where Shirley has cut off the Power in all of Charlescomm
* Update pg 317/319/320, where Big Think breaks the collar and enters Spacerock's portal under veil

@Cantripmancer and Umbrathor - y'all got the key timeline points, but the timestamp associations go further among all the myriad plot lines in-flight. Which I believe are coming together NOW. :D I think there's a very high probability that IsaacAF has let Big Think know that Wanda's situation has gone pear-shaped. If only there was a Wonky Wrench and a Dirtamancer in the vicinity to kipi the Spacerock portal....that way Parson could lead a conveniently assembled strike force into MK-bedrock level to "rescue" Wanda from those nasty rifle-toting Dirtamancers....oh so more conveniently bringing the 'Pliers -TO- Wanda....

@Metallicat - great prediction on bringing the 'Pliers to Wanda. I agree.
neko wrote:

While Big Think (BT) was bedrock digging in the MK, the juice cost of status thinkagrams between IsaacAF and BT are minimal - same hex, 1/2 cost to each party b/c they're both Thinkamancers. There's no reason why they wouldn't be periodically communicating.

They may have a communication channel that is even more direct than a formal Thinkagram. Remember, Thinkamancers have tricks that they can use to encode simple messages on strings. With all these options available, I agree that there is probably communication between them.

That said, there is some reason for Isaac-doll to save juice. We don't know what it is yet, but it's important to Isaac. He denied Wanda's request to send a Thinkagram to Parson, citing the need to conserve juice.
Nimelennar wrote:
Xavier wrote:


I mostly think this is what is likely to happen, however personally I think Wanda's encounter with Jillian will end with Wanda killing Jillian and then decrypting her.
Not sure if this would end FAQ meaning Jillian would have to start a new side? Is this is why Marie had to clear the garrison?
Wanda could then turn to FAQ (#3) and decrypt all the other units in the Hex, and off to the MK they all go. (Something else is bound to come up and complicate this however)


Faq wouldn't end on Jillian's death; Prince Albert, the heir, is still alive, and would become King upon her death. He is currently one hex outside the city of Faq, waiting for next Turn so he can move.

If Albert didn't exist... Upon the Ruler's death (if there's no Heir), all units in the field are disbanded; all units in cities are paralyzed until someone turns them or attacks them. So Marie shouldn't have had to kill them (unless the idea is to have them loyal to Wanda above all).

ICFYS's portal isn't kipi'd, so they'd have to stack the corpses like cordwood (as Parson did) to bring them into the MK, and decrypt them there.



Good point I had forgotten about Prince Albert, so the only reason I can think of for Marie to kill all those units is so Wanda can decrypt them.
Wanda could also decrypt everyone and still get through the portal if Marie was telling the truth about having a scroll to kipi the portal. (not that Wanda would know that)

Of course if Wanda did kill Jillian would she capture the city? and if she was a barbarian could she then found a new side? (can a unit freely turn barbarian rather than to another side?)
Then decrypted Jillian could turn to Wanda's new side.
greycat wrote:

That said, there is some reason for Isaac-doll to save juice. We don't know what it is yet, but it's important to Isaac. He denied Wanda's request to send a Thinkagram to Parson, citing the need to conserve juice.


BT is running on juice. When their juice runs out, they will croak. They said as much earlier, and this was also the reason they hacked into the portal column in the first place. Doll-Isaac is still a part of BT, just a partitioned part. I think it is reasonable to assume that Doll-Isaac is also running on juice and doesn't want to prematurely croak by spending it all on thinkagrams that might not be essential.
neko wrote:

Yep, all of the above character analysis of Wanda is true. But also remember that "the potent Naughtymancy of self-destruction" is also a real thing that affects a unit's power in-game (according to Roger/GMTTA). http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/255 - Also interesting is Charlie's observation that Wanda adopts a "practiced, theatrical" facade of boredom. http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/260

So when I get frustrated with Wanda's attitude, I just chalk it up to a "Naughtymancy thing" and move on.


People keep quoting RVC's arguments regarding magic as fact. I have a few problems with this.

First, Sizemore... a much more reliable source... in essence states that the difference from the way magic has been studied in the past by the likes of the Great Minds and others and the way Parson does it amounts to philosophy without the rigidity of science vs science. Philosophising about things doesn't have a great track record for "correctness".

They stopped at a green copper fountain with a sculpture of a nude Archon, arms upraised. Sizemore popped the last two mushrooms greedily in his mouth, washed his hands, and drank from one of the cascading spouts. "Look, you know. In magic theory," he said, wiping his face on his jacket sleeve, "when we debate...we do it by comparing the merits of one system of terms and ideas to another one. And somebody is always defending the system they most admire. Maybe even because it‘s the system they invented."

Janis took his wrist as he spoke, and led him to a little marble bench to sit.

"Lord Parson doesn‘t do it that way," Sizemore continued, sitting down. "He investigates...tests. He‘s very good at working things down to base principles. I think we could all learn something from the way he thinks."


Then we know that something had been done to RVC's mind. RVC claims he did it to himself with Jojo's help... but for all we know that's what Jojo wants him to believe. We don't know... it's a question without an answer. And lessens RVC's reliability on _everything_.

Then we also know that one of the sources via which RVC reached his conclusions is state 7 trances and thinkamancer decision trees, which never led thinkamancers to the revelation of H String. Maggie herself questions the validity of decision trees after seeing how badly they could be wrong. And, of course, there a lot of very bad signmanacy the great minds... like how they value "thinking alike"... which shows them to be insular and uninterested in ideas that would conflict with what they have already Decided.

And just RVC was annoyingly arrogant... which takes all three of these issues and amplifies them.

The things that RVC said are interesting. They have merit. They are worth considering. But anyone claiming we know something to be fact based on them is... perhaps a bit too trusting.

All THAT said... I agree that I don't see the point in being frustrated with Wanda's fatalism. She's a character. In a fictional story. The closest I get to being frustrated with her is that I don't want her to go to Faq and betray Parson. Cause my romanticism drives me to want Wanda to be loyal. Cause I like Wanda... and I hate disloyalty. But I'd never attribute the cause of my frustration to Wanda. That would be ridiculous. Wanda isn't a person. She's a character. Neither she nor her writer determine what I do and don't like. I do that. The "blame", such as it is, lies with me. It's kinda like being frustrated at a Mario (of Super Mario Brothers) when he lands on lava.
Xavier wrote:
If Wanda did kill Jillian would she capture the city? and if she was a barbarian could she then found a new side? (can a unit freely turn barbarian rather than to another side?)

The Duke Forecastle story gives a solid base in canon for a sided unit going barbarian and founding a new side. A vassal side, anything else would have been suicide. His original side viewed his action as treasonous, because he was not ordered to defect - it was a decision made of his own free will.

Wanda would not automatically capture the city by killing Jillian. All Faq units in the garrison would need to be croaked for that happen: one captures a city when one holds the garrison uncontested (the garrison is comprised of the courtyard, tower and dungeon and possibly a set of inner garrison walls). Units in the outer walls will then become prisoners. I am not sure what happens with units that are in the airspace. [Edit: they become prisoners too, as happened to Olive Branch]

Wanda would need to croak Jillian, the giants and the remaining infantry in the courtyard, and any units that have been stationed in the tower and dungeon after the exchange between Jillian and Marie.

Wanda might pull that off with a decryption cascade, but it is a fair risk. We have no idea what Jillian did to secure the ICFS portal room after Marie invaded through it.