Book 3 - Page 301

Come to pop-up

Book 3 - Page 301
Comic - Book 3 - Page 301
Recent posts... (See full thread)
axus wrote:
Merilynne wrote:

Ooooh... I think we do have something that might back up this hypothesis. Two updates ago, #299, Jed "gave unpaid mana to Kahuna 'ea (Chief Croakamancer, who was Wanda)." We don't have any indication that Wanda has used any juice since being repatriated, so why else would Jed need to give her any?


Parson was pretty clear that he needed Clarence because he had no Thinkamancers with juice, I thought.

That's right. Maggie had used up all of her juice before she was "captured" (drug, unconscious, through Transylvito's portal by Parson and tossed in a cell with a mad Dollamancer for a jailor). When she was released, she still didn't have any juice, or at least none she could utilize for her normal skills.

The question was whether Wanda had juice after being repatriated by Ivan and Claud, but we pretty much decided the question was moot. :)
CDS wrote:
It is one of the few examples in Erfworld when we have an extreme example of both and in both accounts it was not mentioned while understanding that GKs super death machine is upkeep-less is a big intel find and likewise understanding that Parson has potentially the upkeep of the most expensive unit on Erf is likewise big intel.

TV have a Moneymancer and Charlie is well Charlie.

While I don't often like to speculate on omission i.e. Rob might just not told us because it doesn't fit in with the updates he wanted to tell. It seems such a huge omission of game breaking proportions that enemies discover some of GKs biggest secrets that I think it gives us a hint that upkeep for prisoners is standardised.

Which I guess could make sense from a game-mechanics perspective i.e. Allows poorer sides to capture expensive units without going bankrupt and also demonstrates why TVs capture and release of prisoner strategy was so effective.

If I were a ruler and realized my prisoner(s) weren't costing any upkeep, I'd just be happy. :) On the other hand, if I realized one, or even a group, were costing more than average, I'd definitely be checking into it. ;)
KeiranHalcyon31 wrote:
Adept wrote:
greycat wrote:
"Yshl wrote"
"Bogroll
Move: 0 (Garrison)
Hits: 12
Combat: 5
Defense: 4
Special: Regeneration"

Oh god, the wiki still has the original (un-Retconned) page image...?

Now I'm curious. What got retconned there?

Regeneration -> fabrication. Rob realized, belatedly, that traditional Trollish (Twollish) regeneration was not something he wanted in Erfworld, specifically (IIRC) to quash fan theories of Bogroll regenerating.

ETA: Found the source: https://wiki.erfworld.com/Word_of_the_T ... F19.2F2009. See also: https://wiki.erfworld.com/Retconjuration

Actually all we can gather from the retconjuration is that Bogroll doesn't have the regeneration special. Parson lists in his KLOG that regeneration is one of many specials a unit can have. For him to write that some other Gobwin Knob unit must have had the regeneration special (most likely a different twoll to Bogroll).

In otherwords: A twoll can have one of two specials: Fabrication or Regeneration; but never both.

(OK I mean more often than not. But speaking in absolutes is fun)
Anomynous 167 wrote:
KeiranHalcyon31 wrote:
Regeneration -> fabrication. Rob realized, belatedly, that traditional Trollish (Twollish) regeneration was not something he wanted in Erfworld, specifically (IIRC) to quash fan theories of Bogroll regenerating.

ETA: Found the source: https://wiki.erfworld.com/Word_of_the_T ... F19.2F2009. See also: https://wiki.erfworld.com/Retconjuration

Actually all we can gather from the retconjuration is that Bogroll doesn't have the regeneration special. Parson lists in his KLOG that regeneration is one of many specials a unit can have. For him to write that some other Gobwin Knob unit must have had the regeneration special (most likely a different twoll to Bogroll).

In otherwords: A twoll can have one of two specials: Fabrication or Regeneration; but never both.

(OK I mean more often than not. But speaking in absolutes is fun)

Huh... the text of the Klog still says "regeneration" (good eye). I highly suspect that's an oversight, given Rob's comments documented in the first link I posted.
Anomynous 167 wrote:
Bobfromjanitorial wrote:
When in comes to juice and prisoners, I think you must also look at juice and upkeep.

You don't pay a unit's upkeep when they are a prisoner, and they receive no juice.

Spoiler: show
So think of upkeep as a straw in a glass of juice. One end is in the juice, one end is used to pull the juice to the unit.

The unit can use effort (suction/upkeep) to draw juice (juice) into the straw.
If the unit fills the straw with juice, then places a finger over one end (imprisonment), juice can neither enter nor leave the straw, and the amount inside remains fixed until the finger is removed.

Makes Jed seem like even more of a bartender. If you can't get to your drink he'll give you another.

You.. sure..... Fuck.

Correcting people is confusing when um...
(That sentence of yours is just too wrong to know how to correct)


THE REASON THE ORIGINAL OWNER OF A UNIT DOESN'T PAY UPKEEP FOR A PRISONER THAT IS IN ANOTHER SIDE'S PRISON, IS BECAUSE IT IS THE SIDE WHO RUNS THE PRISONS THAT PAYS THE UPKEEP. IN OTHER WORDS, TV WAS FOOTING THE BILL FOR PARSON DUING HIS TIME SPENT IN A CELL.

Spoiler: show
I should really learn to use the capslock key instead of shift.

FTR, I AM YELLING TO KEEP MYSELF FROM OVERTHINKING THE THING I AM RESPONDING TO.


Point out where my metaphor for the interaction between prisoner/upkeep/juice is wrong.
Merilynne wrote:
CDS wrote:
It is one of the few examples in Erfworld when we have an extreme example of both and in both accounts it was not mentioned while understanding that GKs super death machine is upkeep-less is a big intel find and likewise understanding that Parson has potentially the upkeep of the most expensive unit on Erf is likewise big intel.

TV have a Moneymancer and Charlie is well Charlie.

While I don't often like to speculate on omission i.e. Rob might just not told us because it doesn't fit in with the updates he wanted to tell. It seems such a huge omission of game breaking proportions that enemies discover some of GKs biggest secrets that I think it gives us a hint that upkeep for prisoners is standardised.

Which I guess could make sense from a game-mechanics perspective i.e. Allows poorer sides to capture expensive units without going bankrupt and also demonstrates why TVs capture and release of prisoner strategy was so effective.

If I were a ruler and realized my prisoner(s) weren't costing any upkeep, I'd just be happy. :) On the other hand, if I realized one, or even a group, were costing more than average, I'd definitely be checking into it. ;)


I think the lack of upkeep is the most startling because it demonstrates that there truly is no 'cap' to the decryption train GK is not bound by a treasury that would be huge news as it means GK can somewhat break the diminishing returns rule that most sides strategies will be built around.
Bobfromjanitorial wrote:
Anomynous 167 wrote:
Bobfromjanitorial wrote:
When in comes to juice and prisoners, I think you must also look at juice and upkeep.

You don't pay a unit's upkeep when they are a prisoner, and they receive no juice.

Spoiler: show
So think of upkeep as a straw in a glass of juice. One end is in the juice, one end is used to pull the juice to the unit.

The unit can use effort (suction/upkeep) to draw juice (juice) into the straw.
If the unit fills the straw with juice, then places a finger over one end (imprisonment), juice can neither enter nor leave the straw, and the amount inside remains fixed until the finger is removed.

Makes Jed seem like even more of a bartender. If you can't get to your drink he'll give you another.

You.. sure..... Fuck.

Correcting people is confusing when um...
(That sentence of yours is just too wrong to know how to correct)


THE REASON THE ORIGINAL OWNER OF A UNIT DOESN'T PAY UPKEEP FOR A PRISONER THAT IS IN ANOTHER SIDE'S PRISON, IS BECAUSE IT IS THE SIDE WHO RUNS THE PRISONS THAT PAYS THE UPKEEP. IN OTHER WORDS, TV WAS FOOTING THE BILL FOR PARSON DUING HIS TIME SPENT IN A CELL.

Spoiler: show
I should really learn to use the capslock key instead of shift.

FTR, I AM YELLING TO KEEP MYSELF FROM OVERTHINKING THE THING I AM RESPONDING TO.


Point out where my metaphor for the interaction between prisoner/upkeep/juice is wrong.

It's overly vague leading it to be uncorrectable. As GreyCat said:

greycat wrote:
Bobfromjanitorial wrote:

You don't pay a unit's upkeep when they are a prisoner, and they receive no juice.

Who's "you"? The captor side, or the unit's side? The captor pays the upkeep for prisoners.

With such technically ambiguous meaning of "you", there's no way I can address in specifics about what I deem incorrect.
CDS wrote:
Merilynne wrote:
CDS wrote:
It is one of the few examples in Erfworld when we have an extreme example of both and in both accounts it was not mentioned while understanding that GKs super death machine is upkeep-less is a big intel find and likewise understanding that Parson has potentially the upkeep of the most expensive unit on Erf is likewise big intel.

TV have a Moneymancer and Charlie is well Charlie.

While I don't often like to speculate on omission i.e. Rob might just not told us because it doesn't fit in with the updates he wanted to tell. It seems such a huge omission of game breaking proportions that enemies discover some of GKs biggest secrets that I think it gives us a hint that upkeep for prisoners is standardised.

Which I guess could make sense from a game-mechanics perspective i.e. Allows poorer sides to capture expensive units without going bankrupt and also demonstrates why TVs capture and release of prisoner strategy was so effective.

If I were a ruler and realized my prisoner(s) weren't costing any upkeep, I'd just be happy. :) On the other hand, if I realized one, or even a group, were costing more than average, I'd definitely be checking into it. ;)


I think the lack of upkeep is the most startling because it demonstrates that there truly is no 'cap' to the decryption train GK is not bound by a treasury that would be huge news as it means GK can somewhat break the diminishing returns rule that most sides strategies will be built around.

Oh, absolutely! If decrypted have no upkeep as prisoners, Stanley should be glad that Jillian isn't the brightest unit on Erf. Tramennis, however... oh, he could be a problem. Not much gets by the King of Jetstone.

Now I know someone will bring up Charlie, but I'm not sure Lillith was there long enough to require the rations that wouldn't have popped for her. Of course, we've already admitted that we know nothing about how prisoners in the MK work, since there's no side to provide upkeep. :)
I believe the "prisoners/juice" discussion was addressed in universe during Parson and Jack's war-gaming sessions when Ansom was chief. I'm at work and will try to find the source later, but if you go back to early days Parson was commenting on it in one of his early blogs, I could be wrong though. It dealt specifically w/ captured units abilities, and the fact casters would have no juice, but that "Jack would have some tricks he could use anyway"
Anomynous 167 wrote:
But I just said that!... in a mathy way that I immediately redacted after noticing that my inputs were wrong...

I'm foe'd aren't I? (Or speaking obtusely?)


If you have been foe'd, the only way you'll be seen is if someone quotes you. What will it take for that to happen?

===

On the question of who pays for prisoners, from the authors quote page:

Quote:
In Erfworld 39Erf-b1-p038Same-site.PNG Jillian heals at dawn, while Erfworld 52/Parson's Klog 6Erf-b1-p046aSame-site.PNG states that Ansom's forces heal at noon.

Ah, that one's not a blooper. Jillian is captured at that point and shares "turns" with her captors' side. Eats prison meals that pop on Gobwin Knob's expense, etc. [16]