Book 3 - Page 300

Good enough for red collar work

Book 3 - Page 300
Comic - Book 3 - Page 300
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JadedDragoon wrote:
DreadArchon wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:
What we know for a fact is that the jester was a representation of her inner Warlord.


I have the opposite interpretation. What we know for a fact is that it wasn't her "inner Warlord," because the healer was looking for the warlord stuff and Charlie was looking for something else--and that "something else" was the Jester.


I've always taken it to be a manifestation of her fate. In part, cause it got the most uppity when Jillian was most actively resisting fate... and because Charley called it the only enemy that matters.


I'm not sure if this theory is already out there, but I've always thought of the Jester as Jillian's player. I came to that during a re-read of the comic, imagining a fat guy at his computer screaming at the game when his main (Jillian) was getting debuffed and damaged.

Does that theory hold water?

Merilynne wrote:
twhitt wrote:
I'm just rereading and it occurs to me that I don't think Joe Dirt has broken through to the level of the tunnels and the minecart yet. We know Ivan left some (possibly very thin) bedrock between the collars and the tunnel, and we know that they've been digging down through it over time with a number of individual scrolls.

It seems that Joe just barely hit the level of the collar, exclaimed that he found it, and accidentally broke it right before removing the last layer of bedrock. Sort of the upside down version of 251. Then, portal shards appear both in the minecart level and probably the new vertical shaft as well - but they're still separated in "real" space by some bedrock.

I'm not sure that's feasible. How would the shards be projected on the same level as Wanda, et al, if there wasn't at least a break in the bedrock above them? As I understand it, bedrock is very hard, since even with the wonky wrench it takes a lot of juice to penetrate it. I don't know how the shards would "shine through" a solid surface.


The portal columns themselves do penetrate bedrock. I'm not 100% on the function of the collars. Do they prevent the shard projections in the first place, or are the shard projections an artifact of mucking up whatever function the collars serve? The original above-ground Portal Park portals are still present even after the collar is broken, I think?

Yshl - magiphysical theorist :)
Yshl wrote:
Merilynne wrote:
twhitt wrote:
I'm just rereading and it occurs to me that I don't think Joe Dirt has broken through to the level of the tunnels and the minecart yet. We know Ivan left some (possibly very thin) bedrock between the collars and the tunnel, and we know that they've been digging down through it over time with a number of individual scrolls.

It seems that Joe just barely hit the level of the collar, exclaimed that he found it, and accidentally broke it right before removing the last layer of bedrock. Sort of the upside down version of 251. Then, portal shards appear both in the minecart level and probably the new vertical shaft as well - but they're still separated in "real" space by some bedrock.

I'm not sure that's feasible. How would the shards be projected on the same level as Wanda, et al, if there wasn't at least a break in the bedrock above them? As I understand it, bedrock is very hard, since even with the wonky wrench it takes a lot of juice to penetrate it. I don't know how the shards would "shine through" a solid surface.


The portal columns themselves do penetrate bedrock. I'm not 100% on the function of the collars. Do they prevent the shard projections in the first place, or are the shard projections an artifact of mucking up whatever function the collars serve? The original above-ground Portal Park portals are still present even after the collar is broken, I think?

Yshl - magiphysical theorist :)


Yet another thing I just don't know. :D I think the purpose of the portal collar is to focus the portal energy to Portal Park, but I have no real reason to think that. It just seems semi-logical.

Yes, the above-ground portals are still in Portal Park, even if the collar is broken. The explanation of how the Archons went through the shards covered that. Hvs.tCF 263 :)
Lipkin wrote:
Basically, Phil and Pucky manipulated the Dirtamancers into breaking the Spacerock collar to allow Wanda and co through. As I suspected, he was on the same page as Marie the entire time.

Perhaps. I believe however, that his intent is to counter the effect of Marie's meddling with Wanda's destiny, restoring her fate to its original path. Which, I suspect, is something along the lines of: Wanda bursts through the portal for sound reasons, expecting to liberate her captured soldiers, then flips out and croaks people after learning that they were murdered. How her inevitable confrontation with Gillian will play out is open to question. It may be that they truly are destined to join forces. But after having massacred each others' followers...

Also, as has no doubt been pointed out, that's the Faq/ICFYS portal, hence the red colour of the resulting glow. Also, also, I can't think of any reason they'd dig around another portal, given that they thought she would be heading for the ICFYS portal. Also, also, also, they need to hit the tunnels they've been told about, or their operation fails before it's begun, so they need to be precise. The Spacerock portal was still buried in bedrock at the start of turn, they've no idea how heavily the Big Think has redecorated down there. Also, also, also, also, juice limitations are an issue, digging to Spacerock afore digging would be a bit of a waste. Also, also, also, also, also, lookamancy is a concern, keeping the operation focused on a small area would help avoid detection.

Lipkin wrote:
People need to remember that Predictamancers are liars. They will lie to their Rulers to ensure things come to pass as they should. I think Phil lied to the Dirtamancers to ensure Wanda gets back to Spacerock.

I don't believe the rodent's pet human said anything that wasn't true tbh, it's just, his prophecy isn't actually good news from their point of view, they just presumed it was. Stopping Wanda from doing 'x' doesn't necessarily entail defeating her, or even inconveniencing her. That they'd present her with a more tempting option always seemed most likely resolution to that prediction.

Windscion wrote:
Bandaid wrote:
But unless Marie lied she has predicted that Wanda will serve under Jillian.

What Marie said was that she would tell Wanda that it is so predicted. I suspect that this reflect's Marie's interpretation of a prediction. I.e., this is what she hopes will happen.

Marie was trying fulfil a prediction "from a certain point of view". Hijacking Wanda's destiny for her own, mad ends. And perhaps that end was to have Wanda turn instead of decrypting the queen. If Wanda and Gillian are truly destined to join forces, that is the simplest way for it to happen.

Bandaid wrote:
Guppy wrote:
Bandaid wrote:

Well Wanda is currently without the pliers. So unless she gained sufficient knowlegde to decrypt without them she can only uncroak for now. But unless Marie lied she has predicted that Wanda will serve under Jillian. And we have yet to see a single prediction broken.

Maybe one of them will serve "under" the other in a command hierarchy sense, but one will also serve "under" the other in a physical sense. :D

I think by now that ship has sailed and the harbor burned down. Jillian is finally at a point where she is willing to question Wanda's role in Faq's demise. I mean, how is that conversation supposed to go?

Jillian: Wanda, did you croak my father?
Wanda: Yes.
Jillian: Did you uncroak him?
Wanda: Yes.
Jillian: Awesome, please join my side. Also lets screw.
Wanda: Beg me.

Like that perhaps? The whole Fate, Fate, Fate thing Wanda keeps spouting won't help given how much Jillian hates Fate.

And I imagine Wanda will have a thing or four to say about the all the decrypted Gillian's slaughtered. Wanda seems to have given up on the idea frankly, she thought of having lost the last person who mattered to her, it's not hard to work out who it was that she lost. Gillian doesn't love her any more and she knows it. Decryption is possible... but I have a hard time seeing Wanda going for it even then.

Wanda and Gillian may well have been fated for each other... but Wanda and Olive were supposed to be a thing also and look how that turned out. A meddling predictamancer drove them apart by trying to force them together. And Marie's been meddling for a very long time. Like arranging for Ansom to bring the arkenpliers to Wanda... actually, now I think of it, could that have been an attempt to avoid the Queen of Faq being the level ten Warlord Wanda was fated to decrypt?

greycat wrote:
Guppy wrote:
Bandaid wrote:

But unless Marie lied she has predicted that Wanda will serve under Jillian.

Maybe one of them will serve "under" the other in a command hierarchy sense, but one will also serve "under" the other in a physical sense. :D

I was thinking along those lines too, but that's only because of the wording that people are using in this thread. It is not the wording that Marie used.

The Prophecy in question is on page 262 (in the current not-yet-retconjured numbering scheme), where Marie actually says:
Marie wrote:
I am not the only unit Fated to serve Queen Jillian.

There's no "under".

So one of them will be serving the other as the main course at a banquet then?

Dont touch my mustache wrote:
Upon reflection, it really kind of seems that Marie is being intentionally vague here, and possibly even knows for sure that Wanda won't serve FAQ. All Marie's really saying is that some unspecified unit, at some point in time, will serve FAQ, a prediction so broad and vague that the only possible way it could fail to be fulfilled is if Jillian, Albert and FAQ are utterly destroyed before the side has a chance to ever pop, hire, turn or otherwise acquire even a single new unit.

Marie's actions wouldn't make much sense if it was explicitly predicted that Wanda would not serve Faq. But. What if she's fated to be Gillian's chief caster? A prediction like that could be fulfilled by Wanda serving at Faq. Problem is, that Wanda gains nothing from turning to Faq (just as Olive Branch would have gained nothing by turning to Goodminton) and may have to abandon her followers to do so. Croaking and decrypting the Queen on the other hand...

Or Wanda could be fated to leave the side of Gobwin Knob and do certain things that could, if you squint hard enough (and ignore more obvious outcomes I'd imagine), involve turning to Faq. The link between the prediction and Marie's desired outcome may be quite tenuous.

JadedDragoon wrote:
Hmm, if there is a prediction, sure. But what if there is no prediction regarding where Wanda is going and what not? What if Phillip has made that up entirely? If there actually is such a prediction I can see him trying to make it happen... but I can also see him lying that such a prediction exists and using a false prediction to manipulate and undermine the dirtamancers. That it has come close to actually causing his false prediction to come true could be a (writer intended) coincidence.

I'm not saying that's the case... I'm just surprised by how many people seem to assume that isn't the case.

I'd find it hard to understand the actions of the predictamancers if no prophecy relating to Wanda's escape from the magic kingdom existed. I mean, yes, they could, in theory, draw conclusions from prophecies that require Wanda to be alive and free... but how could Marie hope to deliver on her promise to turn Wanda if she had no reason to believe that she'd be able to find her? And why would the rodent(& pet) bother arranging all this? Beyond a random plot to croak Joe Spade, what would be the point?

Thalassin wrote:
The way I see it, Marie was simply making a joke (she's even smiling as she says it!). Otherwise, she could have replied "no, you don't have to do it yourself". In that context (Do I have to swing the sword at him myself?) saying "it doesn't have to be a sword" implies the silent "that you swing".

Parson is angry at Wanda because he doesn't quite understand how prophecies work. Marie is mad at Wanda because she DOES understand, quite precisely, how they do and know that that were still some ways for fate to salvage the situation if another unit successfully croaked Charlie.

Umm... Marie is a liar, a murderess and a traitor who is plotting to rob Gobwin Knob of their Chief Caster, an arkentool and if possible, all of the decrypted. Not to mention that her actions during the battle of portal park look rather like deliberate sabotage in hindsight(throwing the healing scroll to Wanda (while Jack was right there) causing her to blow her veil for example).

I feel we have to regard Wanda, Chief Caster of Gobwin Knob and a peerless sorceress, as the only trustworthy authority on the matter.
Whispri wrote:

greycat wrote:
Guppy wrote:
But unless Marie lied she has predicted that Wanda will serve under Jillian.
Maybe one of them will serve "under" the other in a command hierarchy sense, but one will also serve "under" the other in a physical sense. :D

I was thinking along those lines too, but that's only because of the wording that people are using in this thread. It is not the wording that Marie used.

The Prophecy in question is on page 262 (in the current not-yet-retconjured numbering scheme), where Marie actually says:
Marie wrote:
I am not the only unit Fated to serve Queen Jillian.

There's no "under".

So one of them will be serving the other as the main course at a banquet then?

I'm sure Jillian will be very disapointed should Marie serve as the main course. Decrypted dinners are all dust and no meat.

Quote:
Thalassin wrote:
The way I see it, Marie was simply making a joke (she's even smiling as she says it!). Otherwise, she could have replied "no, you don't have to do it yourself". In that context (Do I have to swing the sword at him myself?) saying "it doesn't have to be a sword" implies the silent "that you swing".

Parson is angry at Wanda because he doesn't quite understand how prophecies work. Marie is mad at Wanda because she DOES understand, quite precisely, how they do and know that that were still some ways for fate to salvage the situation if another unit successfully croaked Charlie.

Umm... Marie is a liar, a murderess and a traitor who is plotting to rob Gobwin Knob of their Chief Caster, an arkentool and if possible, all of the decrypted. Not to mention that her actions during the battle of portal park look rather like deliberate sabotage in hindsight(throwing the healing scroll to Wanda (while Jack was right there) causing her to blow her veil for example).

I feel we have to regard Wanda, Chief Caster of Gobwin Knob and a peerless sorceress, as the only trustworthy authority on the matter.

Aren't veils channeling spells (This question is non-rhetorical)? So wouldn't the veil be busted if Jack were the one to use the scroll?
Anomynous 167 wrote:
I'm sure Jillian will be very disapointed should Marie serve as the main course. Decrypted dinners are all dust and no meat.

Aren't veils channeling spells (This question is non-rhetorical)? So wouldn't the veil be busted if Jack were the one to use the scroll?

Could she not just add water?

Wanda's veil failed (as a result of scroll casting) after Jack cast a spell to make Hamster appear to be wearing Gobwin Knob colours. I would suggest that if he could cast spells of his own while Wanda's veil was up, a scroll would pose no difficulties.
Whispri wrote:
Anomynous 167 wrote:
I'm sure Jillian will be very disapointed should Marie serve as the main course. Decrypted dinners are all dust and no meat.

Aren't veils channeling spells (This question is non-rhetorical)? So wouldn't the veil be busted if Jack were the one to use the scroll?

Could she not just add water?

Sure, just add a bit of water and some spice and you'd have Chili Con Marie! :twisted:
Whispri wrote:
Wanda's veil failed (as a result of scroll casting) after Jack cast a spell to make Hamster appear to be wearing Gobwin Knob colours. I would suggest that if he could cast spells of his own while Wanda's veil was up, a scroll would pose no difficulties.

Good catch.
Free Radical wrote:
Angband wrote:
Shai hulud wrote:
Also wonder what Rob is referring to with the red collar work line. ;)

“Blue Collar” work is a reference to skilled manual labor, like construction (which matches many of the dirtamancers’ signamancy.)

Also, Ivan changed from the Blue team to the Red team when he was decrypted!


Red vs. blue.

Pills? Reality vs. illusion?

Politics? Donkeys vs. elephants?

Labor? Hard work vs. smart work?

Sides? Charlescomm vs. Gobwin Knob?

Video? PB vs. PR?

twhitt wrote:
It occurs to me that we don't know the collars don't restore at the start of turn, or at least over time, in some fashion.

We do know:
1) Ivan Poe almost croaked when he found out breaking a collar projects portals. 235
1a) and he's never done it again. 235

...


I just see this adding up to the columns restoring themselves. Otherwise, there should be a portal somewhere that Ivan broke, but isn't CC's.


Nope. Ivan says he is careful not to do it again. Therefore, prior to this there was only one broken portal.
Just so we're clear, red collar work is a euphemism for hookers. That is the joke I was making.
Shai hulud wrote:
Just so we're clear, red collar work is a euphemism for hookers. That is the joke I was making.

:o:o:o I've never heard that one! I've heard of the term "red light district," but the only reference I've ever heard referring to "red collar" was for government workers.

Is that reference limited to a certain culture?
Shai hulud wrote:
Just so we're clear, red collar work is a euphemism for hookers.

No it's not. "Red collar" means working as part of the government bureaucracy.

You're thinking of "Scarlet collar." Usually that refers to the pornography industry, but in some cases it can also refer to prostitution or other sex work.