Book 3 - Page 280

Predictable

Book 3 - Page 280
Comic - Book 3 - Page 280
Recent posts... (See full thread)
Aquillion wrote:
Adept wrote:
It's different. Parson explicitly forbid Stanley from disbanding him. I wonder if it meant Stanley couldn't even go through the motions.
Also, I think the Duty rules were vital to why that worked for him (and why most people can't do it.)

You can only forbid your ruler from doing something if you are certain it is vital to your side. Similarly, your ruler would normally be able to disobey if they disagreed. The reason Stanley wasn't able to disobey was because deep down inside, he also thought that Parson was vital to his side and therefore couldn't justify disobeying.


I took the whole scene as Parson calling Stanley's bluff. Stanley has to control Parson with something and wouldn't reveal what happened as to not lose leverage any further.
guynietoren wrote:
Aquillion wrote:
Adept wrote:
It's different. Parson explicitly forbid Stanley from disbanding him. I wonder if it meant Stanley couldn't even go through the motions.
Also, I think the Duty rules were vital to why that worked for him (and why most people can't do it.)

You can only forbid your ruler from doing something if you are certain it is vital to your side. Similarly, your ruler would normally be able to disobey if they disagreed. The reason Stanley wasn't able to disobey was because deep down inside, he also thought that Parson was vital to his side and therefore couldn't justify disobeying.


I took the whole scene as Parson calling Stanley's bluff. Stanley has to control Parson with something and wouldn't reveal what happened as to not lose leverage any further.

I don't think Stanley's that subtle. :D
Chiu ChunLing wrote:
Axiom wrote:
Does anyone else's Schmuckers show up? Mine say Unavailable. It's really weird.
Me too, and it's annoying (partly cause I also was trying to tip something).


You see, schmuckers don't exist in the turn 96 AW. The tipping of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We must work to better ourselves and the rest of the Stupidworlders.
I'm not trying to shut down the conversation or anything, but the low supply of anything resembling "free will" in Erfworld has been a major running theme from all the way back to when Stanley ordered Parson to laugh at one of his jokes.

Yawner wrote:
Remember, it's not just poking holes in bodies that causes croaking in erfworld. You need to land a hit, you need to get through defences, you need to deal enough dmg. Marie is a high lvl mage with who knows what defence spells on her precast before battle. I'm guessing that even a high lvl warlord like Jillian would at least need a crit to otk Marie.

Duncan's (final) internal monologue gave us a recent reminder of this. It's not normal for a high-level unit to be killed in one hit, and he's weirded out by it.

Axiom wrote:
Whoever's perspective "wins out" will have huge implications for the story and the balance of power in Erf.


Balder doesn't like absolutist things like Fate, so I think we can already tell which way that will go. :-)

Nakedkali wrote:
I don't agree that the goal of the Hippiemancers is that everyone live forever. They deliberately randomly kill birds with poisoned food.

It's the circle of liiiiiiife…
Chiu ChunLing wrote:
Yes, I get that Jillian's reasoning is flawed. She's using her belief that it is impossible for the decrypted to be anything more than puppets as the premise in her proof that Ansom is just a meat puppet. Jillian's reasoning is supposed to be flawed, that's the way her character is written.

But we're suppose to be able to see that, if Jillian is wrong about decrypted being mere puppets, then Ansom's efforts to get Jillian decrypted do not prove he has no love or free will.

See, my point is that Jillian's REASONING is not flawed. Her INFORMATION is incomplete which makes her conclusions flawed. Her argument is valid but not sound.

Her premises area

1a) Ansom knew what Wanda did to Jillian with the suggestion spell
1b) Ansom understood and agreed that this hurt Jillian and was wrong because it took away her ability to choose for herself (her free will)
2a) Magic can't compel someone to hurt someone they love
2b) Ansom really loved Jillian
3a) Nobody who really believed in Royalism could be magically compelled to serve Stanley long term in his mission to wipe out Jetstone
3b) Ansom really believed in Royalism
4a) The decrypted calling itself Ansom serves Stanley and tried to hurt Jillian in a way that, if the decrypted are real, would be comparable to the suggestion spell.

THEREFORE the decrypted calling itself Ansom isn't the real Ansom because Wanda couldn't make the real Ansom do those things.

She isn't using her belief that it is impossible for the decrypted to be anything more than puppets as the premise in her proof that Ansom is just a meat puppet. She's using the false B premises in her proof that Ansom is just a meat puppet.
Adept wrote:
multilis wrote:

Stupid world... you may believe global warming is doom to earth, and you must force your "will" on others in order to save the world by drastically reducing co2 emissions. Someone else may think you belong to a "cult" and are interfering with their "free will", and that problem is easily solved by "iron fertilization of oceans" but your cult leader won't allow the solution because they would lose their cult... they say you don't love them because you are trying to force your will on them.

Such condescending superiority, coupled with a serious case of Dunning-Krugers.

I'd be good schmuckers that you don't have a degree in a relevant field. But surely a conservative political outlook is just as good, right?

-Adept (Ecologist / Environmental Scientist)


Well, the first rule of Dunning-Kruger club is you don't know you're a member of Dunning-Kruger club.
Danalog wrote:
Adept wrote:
multilis wrote:

Stupid world... you may believe global warming is doom to earth, and you must force your "will" on others in order to save the world by drastically reducing co2 emissions. Someone else may think you belong to a "cult" and are interfering with their "free will", and that problem is easily solved by "iron fertilization of oceans" but your cult leader won't allow the solution because they would lose their cult... they say you don't love them because you are trying to force your will on them.

Such condescending superiority, coupled with a serious case of Dunning-Krugers.

I'd be good schmuckers that you don't have a degree in a relevant field. But surely a conservative political outlook is just as good, right?

-Adept (Ecologist / Environmental Scientist)


Well, the first rule of Dunning-Kruger club is you don't know you're a member of Dunning-Kruger club.

It's a core tragedy of the human condition.
easter wrote:
Her premises area

1a) Ansom knew what Wanda did to Jillian with the suggestion spell
1b) Ansom understood and agreed that this hurt Jillian and was wrong because it took away her ability to choose for herself (her free will)
2a) Magic can't compel someone to hurt someone they love
2b) Ansom really loved Jillian
3a) Nobody who really believed in Royalism could be magically compelled to serve Stanley long term in his mission to wipe out Jetstone
3b) Ansom really believed in Royalism
4a) The decrypted calling itself Ansom serves Stanley and tried to hurt Jillian in a way that, if the decrypted are real, would be comparable to the suggestion spell.
1a and 1b imply nothing unless Ansom recognizes being decrypted as being equivalent to a suggestion spell. 2a and 2b imply nothing unless Jillian will be harmed by decryption. 3a and 3b imply nothing unless Jetstone is a crucial for Royalty to continue to exist, which it isn't because Ansom and other decrypted Royals are still Royal. 4a is another restatement of the consequence, decrypted are no longer themselves.
easter wrote:
THEREFORE the decrypted calling itself Ansom isn't the real Ansom because Wanda couldn't make the real Ansom do those things.

She isn't using her belief that it is impossible for the decrypted to be anything more than puppets as the premise in her proof that Ansom is just a meat puppet. She's using the false B premises in her proof that Ansom is just a meat puppet.
It isn't possible to get the listed false premises to lead to the consequence without assuming the consequence.

Of course, Jillian's NOT reasoning as such, she's emoting. Being tackled off her Megalogwif hurt her feels, and so she's jumping to the conclusion that Ansom is evil now. It's the same thing that little kids (and many adults) feel about a dentist. Sitting in a chair and having someone poke your teeth with sharp things and make comments on how you don't brush enough feels bad, therefore it is bad.

Jillian is Jillian, I'm not expecting her to be reasonable all the sudden.
Chiu ChunLing wrote:
easter wrote:
Her premises area

1a) Ansom knew what Wanda did to Jillian with the suggestion spell
1b) Ansom understood and agreed that this hurt Jillian and was wrong because it took away her ability to choose for herself (her free will)
2a) Magic can't compel someone to hurt someone they love
2b) Ansom really loved Jillian
3a) Nobody who really believed in Royalism could be magically compelled to serve Stanley long term in his mission to wipe out Jetstone
3b) Ansom really believed in Royalism
4a) The decrypted calling itself Ansom serves Stanley and tried to hurt Jillian in a way that, if the decrypted are real, would be comparable to the suggestion spell.
1a and 1b imply nothing unless Ansom recognizes being decrypted as being equivalent to a suggestion spell.

They imply something if Ansom recognized Jillian would consider decryption as comparable to a suggestion spell (which is the only alternative to them being different people. Either the pliers brainwash them, or they make new people. There's no 3rd option). But I can see your point.
Quote:
2a and 2b imply nothing unless Jillian will be harmed by decryption.
Again, I feel you're giving Jillian's opinion as someone who has a previous emotionally abusive relationship with Wanda based around twisting her(J) to her(W) will through magic and how similar that is to what decryption does. Even if you think Ansom is still Ansom 100% he definitely had his mind rewritten in some way by the decryption process to love Wanda when he didn't before.
Quote:
3a and 3b imply nothing unless Jetstone is a crucial for Royalty to continue to exist, which it isn't because Ansom and other decrypted Royals are still Royal.
This is where I completely disagree with you. Decrypted Ansom no longer considers himself Royal (he specifically requests to no longer be called prince) and objectively believes Royalty is obsolete. He says as much in those exact words. He is waging a war of Toolism meant to eliminate the Royal Mandate and replace it with the Toolist one. Ansom objectively is no longer a Royalist and no longer believes in the need or right of Royalty to continute ruling or existing. It isn't that Jetstone is essential to Royalty continued existence, it's that Jetstone is a royal side and GK isn't.

Quote:
4a is another restatement of the consequence, decrypted are no longer themselves.
I disagree. even if I concede 1 and can compromise on 2, 3 is absolutely a sticking point if Jillian believes Ansom was a true Royalist (which I feel it's established she did). The man Jillian believed Ansom was could never, by any magical means, be made into a servant of Stanley who would march against his own father and brothers. It is beyond the scope of what magic can do. You cannot turn a mouse into a lion or a royalist into a toolist. so as I said

easter wrote:
THEREFORE the decrypted calling itself Ansom isn't the real Ansom because Wanda couldn't make the real Ansom do those things.

She isn't using her belief that it is impossible for the decrypted to be anything more than puppets as the premise in her proof that Ansom is just a meat puppet. She's using the false B premises in her proof that Ansom is just a meat puppet.

Quote:
It isn't possible to get the listed false premises to lead to the consequence without assuming the consequence.
yes it is. Given only the information we have from book 1 about thinkamancy/suggestion magic and Ansom that Jillian knew about it is actually more consistent with the rules of erfworld to get to the conclusion that the Ansom decrypted isn't Ansom than the alternative. It's only by learning that Ansom was never a true believer, true lover (or a true anything else) that lets us understand how Wanda was able to do that to him within the rules of the game (and why she wasn't able to long term with Ossamer).
Look, there is obviously not going to be any agreement here.

I can make a circular argument that decryption obviously can't be bad because decryption isn't bad. I can make it using Ansom. I can make it without any logical contradictions arising from any canon events in the story.

That doesn't make it not a circular argument.