Book 3 - Page 245

Quit undermining me

Book 3 - Page 245
Comic - Book 3 - Page 245
Recent posts... (See full thread)
zilfallon wrote:
Chiu ChunLing wrote:
snip

The guy said "Why would you think golems have no move?" and you said "those were dolls." But yeah I'm putting words in your mouth.
I said they were dolls because they were created by Dollamancy, not Dirtamancy.
zilfallon wrote:
Oh wait, you actually wrote that trying to imply dirtamancy golems would differ from dollamancy golems in a way no two units (other than those specifically labeled as "garrison") differ, even though NOTHING in hundreds of pages so far has suggested anything remotely similar to it, but the simplest and most possible explanation has to be "dirtamancy golems can only move when stacked with a dirtamancer".
The fact that we have only seen Dirty golems used in defense rather than in offensives while we have seen substantial uses of Dollamancy units in attacks is not "nothing". It is possibly explicable in other ways, but it is not "nothing".
zilfallon wrote:
Chiu ChunLing wrote:
We all know perfectly well that the hostility is over another argument entirely, which you lost.

Get over it. That was that, this is this.

What are you even talking about?
You would know better than I, since I don't bother tracking when other people are feeling especially hurt that they lost an argument with me. But your behavior pattern is pretty obvious.
zilfallon wrote:
Also, everyone loses every argument with you, because, you know, playing chess with a pigeon. I mean, how are you even supposed to win against someone who can act as if "dirtamancy golems can only move when stacked with a dirtamancer" theory is the most solid thing in the entire universe, despite it requiring multiple assumptions, none of which were hinted at since the start of Erfworld?
If you really think that I'm treating the speculation that Dirty golems might gain move from being stacked with a Dirtamancer as the most solid thing in the entire universe, then you would seem not to have read the actual post where I advance this speculation.
Chiu ChunLing wrote:
Because those were dolls, a product of Spookism, which confers Movement. The various Dirtamancer golems are products of Stuffamancy, which only confers Matter. I'd still like to know if golems have their own move without being stacked with a Dirtamancer. But it doesn't seem like an insuperable objection, Tannenbaums also have move despite being Hippemancy (no Movement either), even if their move is "crap".
Or, more likely you are determined, for reasons the particulars of which I don't really care about, to misrepresent my statements out of a sense of injury for other occasions on which I proved you wrong about something.
G-RAFs are cloth golems~
Tchotchkes are glass golems~
Snowmen are snow golems~
Dolls are leather golems~
Crap golems are crap golems~

It doesn't matter the material or class, they'd all have move~
abb3w wrote:

Anomynous 167 wrote:
What's really hard to do is literal arse pulls.


Clearly, there is now a meta-literary imperative for Sizemore to do one before the end of the series.

Size-what now? Oh, the poop guy. Sounds like his wheelhouse! Or...outhouse? Still, i dunno if he could do an ass pull of anything useful like a weapon or a regiment, sounds like a stretch.
twhitt wrote:
Wanda is a noble, probably, but her father was Overlord, not King. She's not royal.

I agree that there may be 'combat casters' with a better attack bonus. Or her level could possibly be 18 or something - she's older than Jillian, probably older than Ansom, Stanley, and Caesar, and has seemingly been in active combat operations for a lot of that time. As far as I know, no one's ever said.

In contrast, it seems that Olive got to 12 via direct strikes against rulers under truce/parley/Chill. That's less opportunity to lead stacks that croak high level warlords, meaning Wanda was probably gaining more experience than Olive while they shared a side and Olive hit 12.

She was popped in a side's capital as daughter of a ruler however, there may be no mechanical difference between her and a royal caster of similar level.

Yes, that is a possibility worth considering. It would explain why they're taking precautions with Wanda they took with no one else. And as I recall, there was comment in book 0 of it being foolish of Haffaton to have Olive as Chief Caster while Wanda was part of their side.

Wanda's conquered more cities and sides than anyone alive. She should be very high level.

Chiu ChunLing wrote:
Not clear how this happened, but that wasn't me or even a conversation I was really in. But yeah, Wanda just stacking with Ivan and Claud gives them some massive bonuses, and if they can get the other prisoners as well, well now. But that option isn't worth exposing Wanda to any increase danger rather than getting her back to Portal Park. If going back under the bedrock isn't an option (such as because Ivan won't be able to close and then bring them back up in Portal Park) or repatriating the other prisoners is necessary to get the forces to rescue Wanda, that's one thing. But much as I like Lilith, saving the other prisoners is not worth any significant risk to Wanda.

I'm not sure that she would give them any bonuses. She isn't chief caster, she isn't wielding the pliers and they aren't uncroaked.

Chiu ChunLing wrote:
P.S. It's funny that nobody has mentioned it yet, but Wanda is doing her "I'm busy looking through somebody else's eyes" thing in this whole update. I wonder if she's looking through Lilith's eyes or Bonnie. We pretty well know what Lilith is seeing, but it would be of interest to Wanda. I wonder what Bonnie is seeing...she's probably getting antsy at Stanley over all these unexpected and not terribly organized developments. Maybe Wanda is flipping back and forth, trying to figure out whether her exit here is out past the other prisoners, repatriating them as they go, or back down under the bedrock. I think I know which one she'd prefer, but I hope she gets which one is actually feasible.

Oh yes, if Wanda does, in fact, have juice, she may soon be targeting a spell through Lilith vision.

Brucester wrote:
Yes I agree. Why would Ivan have left a hole into the dirtamancer mansion unless it was a trap? If he was sending Claud or Claud's minions into action, why leave the hole? (evidence of the incursion) Surely he would seal the breach and not leave it 'open'

Juice limitations? Besides, what's the advantage to sealing it with all those dirtamancers so close at hand?
dirocyn wrote:
JadedDragoon wrote:


Really it's getting old pointing out again and again that Ivan all but spelled out they cant escape the tunnels without the wrench. This proves there is no path through the bedrock to the surface usable by a skilled dirtamancer unless there is another artifact out there like the Wonkey Wrench that can tunnel through bedrock which both Ivan and the leaders of the dirtamancers don't know about (as I explained in the linked post). At this point I have to assume people are just ignoring any evidence that doesn't tell them what they want to hear.


It's not proof of any such thing. It is evidence that Ivan was not aware of any openings in the bedrock--or maybe even less than that--that he was unwilling to share any such awareness with Claud. You are assuming that a skilled Dirtamancer (and I agree Ivan is perhaps the most skilled there is, with respect to bedrock) can detect a small opening in bedrock from a distance without (apparently) actually trying. But he didn't need to try, because it seemed pretty likely the golem followed the tunnel that's there. I mean, the golem could have created a new tunnel and backfilled, which would have made it more difficult to follow. But that seemed unlikely and indeed wasn't the case.


Did you even read the linked post? Hell did you even read what you just quoted? I covered everything you just said there. I even agreed with most of what you just said. Try actually taking time to understand someone's position before insisting they are wrong.

EDIT: I have repeatedly acknowledged there are limits to what Ivan can be expected to know. I have repeatedly acknowledged that there are corner cases that can't be accounted for. But the vast majority of likely cases are covered by what I've said. And all the corner cases and things that Ivan might not be aware of are also things we aren't aware of... thus, as I said, such things are pure speculation. Thus all available evidence says one thing and people keep claiming the opposite.
14 pages, and what do you get?
Circular arguments and no update yet.
dirocyn wrote:

We know the bunker is below bedrock. We know that the portal column collars, when broken, spray portal shards on the bedrock, which heavily implies the portal shards we see are on bedrock. (I admit to having been on the wrong side of this argument before--I found contrary evidence and moved on). We know the tunnel leads upwards from the portal base, and I assume Ivan & Claud moved up that tunnel some distance before they encountered the golem. We know Claud suspects Charlie has the ability to cast through the golem. We know Ivan could manipulate the ceiling and floor of that tunnel without the wrench. I say that's very strong evidence (not outright proof, the Wrench could have a large area of effect around it) that the tunnel where they encountered the golem was not IN bedrock. And we know the golem had the wrench, which is capable of digging through bedrock.

Edit: Oh, and we also know that the other Dirtamancers didn't notice a hole in the bedrock any of the times Ivan dug down through the bedrock--including that one time where they were actively chasing him and would have been watching for decoy tunnels and the like. Which is itself pretty strong evidence that holes in the bedrock are not obvious from a distance. End edit.

Ivan creating that Stalagmite and stopping the cart proves nothing. He used Juice to create those pillars from nothing. If you recall, he was also able to make pitch there, and I didn't see any tar to be manipulated.
I think that the latest update has provided evidence that the unbreakable bedrock layer (and wow, they got busy with that excavation, didn't they?) is in meter cubes even where Ivan hasn't been breaking through it (also, Erfworlders are short, aren't they?).

This lends credence to the idea that the bedrock underneath that layer is not unbreakable, and thus that even though Ivan may have personally dug out every meter of that tunnel complex, he is not therefore absolutely personally assured that there are no gaps in the unbreakable layer above it. On the other hand, if the unbreakable layer is naturally in meter cubes, and Dirtamancers range all over the island to assist with all kinds of building/landscaping/cultivation projects, it would be extremely unlikely for them to have missed any such gaps over the many thousand turns the MK has been in operation.

However, in our view of the bunker, we see that the cubes appear to be half-meter scale. This may be a result of Ivan having dug them out and replaced them with smaller cubes, or it may be that under the meter cubes there is a random arrangement of half-meter cubes. In either case, the existence of half-meter cubes suggests that it would be possible for a smaller gap to have been created at some point in the past, and left unsealed. But that possibility is a hypothesis without supporting evidence. It's as plausible as the idea that, if Ivan were to dig just a little further down, he'd discover an entire other subterranean kingdom of a previously unknown race. But it's no more plausible.
dirocyn wrote:
JadedDragoon wrote:


Really it's getting old pointing out again and again that Ivan all but spelled out they cant escape the tunnels without the wrench. This proves there is no path through the bedrock to the surface usable by a skilled dirtamancer unless there is another artifact out there like the Wonkey Wrench that can tunnel through bedrock which both Ivan and the leaders of the dirtamancers don't know about (as I explained in the linked post). At this point I have to assume people are just ignoring any evidence that doesn't tell them what they want to hear.


It's not proof of any such thing. It is evidence that Ivan was not aware of any openings in the bedrock--or maybe even less than that--that he was unwilling to share any such awareness with Claud. You are assuming that a skilled Dirtamancer (and I agree Ivan is perhaps the most skilled there is, with respect to bedrock) can detect a small opening in bedrock from a distance without (apparently) actually trying. But he didn't need to try, because it seemed pretty likely the golem followed the tunnel that's there. I mean, the golem could have created a new tunnel and backfilled, which would have made it more difficult to follow. But that seemed unlikely and indeed wasn't the case.

This is pure conjecture, but if bedrock is opaque to dirtamancy senses, one might have to stand in just exactly the right place to be able to "see" through an opening and know that it is actually an opening. Also, looking through ordinary rock to examine the bedrock may require juice.

We know the bunker is below bedrock. We know that the portal column collars, when broken, spray portal shards on the bedrock, which heavily implies the portal shards we see are on bedrock. (I admit to having been on the wrong side of this argument before--I found contrary evidence and moved on). We know the tunnel leads upwards from the portal base, and I assume Ivan & Claud moved up that tunnel some distance before they encountered the golem. We know Claud suspects Charlie has the ability to cast through the golem. We know Ivan could manipulate the ceiling and floor of that tunnel without the wrench. I say that's very strong evidence (not outright proof, the Wrench could have a large area of effect around it) that the tunnel where they encountered the golem was not IN bedrock. And we know the golem had the wrench, which is capable of digging through bedrock.

Edit: Oh, and we also know that the other Dirtamancers didn't notice a hole in the bedrock any of the times Ivan dug down through the bedrock--including that one time where they were actively chasing him and would have been watching for decoy tunnels and the like. Which is itself pretty strong evidence that holes in the bedrock are not obvious from a distance. End edit.


Care to bet 50 schmuckers that there is no opening revealed in the bedrock by the end of book 3? You really have yourself in a bubble here. Ivan has the wrench- that's how he got out. There is no opening in the bedrock. That's such a given that master class dirtamancers in their INTERNAL discussions don't even consider it as a possibility.
I'll bet 50 schmuckers that there will be another opening revealed in the bedrock by the end of book 3. Just that it's more likely to be a new one made by the Wonky Wrench rather than one that existed prior to the creation of the Wonky Wrench, unknown to Ivan.

Hehehe, you need to be more careful with your wording.

It would be interesting if it turned out that the Dirties have a doctrinal objection to the idea of tunneling through the bedrock of the MK. What if they believe that, if you tunnel down far enough, you'd come up into the hex structure of the rest of Erfworld, and that bedrock was placed by the Titans to prevent that?

Better yet, what if they're right?

The question of whether this came to be known because some ancient Dirtamancer discovered it or because of passages of scripture that are understood in that peculiar sense by Master Dirtamancers would be almost irrelevant.