Book 3 - Page 243

Kaf-ka-boom

Book 3 - Page 243
Comic - Book 3 - Page 243
Recent posts... (See full thread)
To be fair, when Bunny is having her moment of forced self-examination after triggering the badness spell, she realizes that she lied to herself about a lot of what was going on with her back then. That doesn't mean that the GMTTA were right to deem her bad, but it does throw into question the easy assumption that they were entirely wrong. Bunny did abuse Thinkamancy, by using it on herself to avoid facing some unpleasant truths about what she'd done...and why.

Did doing that contribute to her spell activating to make her bad? Did she do it because she was bad? Did the GMTTA realize she would do that to herself, or was likely to, and thus put the badness spell in place to guard against what she might do as a result?

One thing I do know. The GMTTA aren't gods. They're powerful and experienced masters of their discipline, and they have some impressive abilities. But they have to work within the realm of ends and means like anyone else. I can say that they were wrong to make Bunny bad. But I can't say it wasn't an honest mistake rather than an act of overt malice. Doesn't mean it can't have been malicious, at least on the part of some of them. We've seen that "Thinking Alike" doesn't exclude occasionally advancing a line of argument for ulterior motives (indeed, as a technical nihilist I recognize that without 'ulterior' motives one cannot act at all).

There's a saying, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Variations abound, I'm quite fond of the corollary, "some things cannot be adequately explained by mere stupidity." But in this case the original applies. I can believe that the GMTTA really thought the spell was necessary given both the serious implications of what was discovered and Bunny's distinct lack of good character judgment. I don't need to believe it, but such a mistake on the part of the GMTTA is adequately explained by stupidity...and not just their own.

Any government is really just a group of people who have power taking action against things that they fear more than the guilt of using power unnecessarily. Sometimes that's because they don't care enough about moral fault, or are unreasonably fearful of something. Sometimes it's because there isn't much chance of the use of power being unnecessary, and the thing averted is rightfully worth the cost of preventing it.

And sometimes it's just an honest mistake.

All three happen with the best government in the world, and possibly with even the worst government that has ever existed, though certainly the proportions between the best government and the worst government would be quite different. We've seen that the GMTTA have their different perceptions of the degree of power they really hold and the nature and scale of the threats they attempt to avoid. But by and large they aren't totally deluded. They know that they can be wrong and are generally willing to try reason before resorting to force.

I don't like how narrowly they define "reason" or how quickly they give up on it, and we've seen a very unpleasant example of just how badly they can be wrong when resorting to force.

But here's the thing about resorting to force...you never have no chance of being extraordinarily, tragically wrong. People who understand use of force never talk about "non-lethal" force, only less-lethal force. And well short of killing an innocent person over a mistake, you can hurt people a lot more than was necessary or useful when you resort to force because you've reached the limits of your ability to persuade by reason.

Humans don't live entirely by persuasion. When you pluck fruit off a tree rather than ask it nicely to drop the fruit to you so that you can engage in a mutually beneficial relationship where you help the tree grow and reproduce in exchange for food, you're resorting to force because of the limits of your ability to persuade by reason. Don't even get started on eating meat...I'm not a vegetarian, let alone a fruitarian, but there's no way I think you could reason a healthy animal into being eaten so that you'd take care of its off-spring. The very idea goes right past "ethically questionable" to "grotesque horror".

I like Bunny. I like Don (though nobody is talking about decrypting him, I sorta hope they do because I think he's cool and because Parson needs to know what does happen when you decrypt a ruler). That doesn't mean I can't believe either of them was ever wrong in a way that wasn't completely honestly mistaken.

I like some of the GMTTA, and I recognize that they are individuals working within the limitations imposed by the necessity of cooperating with other individuals whom I don't like as much. I think that many of them try very hard to avoid being dishonest about their reasons for making mistakes, but they've made mistakes, even as the GMTTA, and not all of those mistakes were 'honest'...some were explicitly dishonest in the sense that the GMTTA Decided that they shouldn't share their reasons for making them.

And Bill...Ponzie was alive then too, and heir to the side. Bunny should never have trusted either of them. She learned that...but not everyone does. And she hid some of what she knew from herself, using Thinkamancy. I won't say the danger the GMTTA saw in that situation wasn't real, and I don't know that they had less dire means of ensuring it couldn't happen. I can say that it doesn't reflect well on them that they needed such an extraordinary pressure to even consider allowing Bunny to no longer be Bad, if they knew that sometimes it was necessary to inflict badness in situations where logically the reasons could eventually pass.

And if they used badness when some less irrevocable measure would have worked, that was wrong, and not in a way that can be adequately explained by stupidity.

But it's not like I've never done anything malicious. It's frustratingly common for something to turn out to have been good, but I'm only frustrated by that because I meant for it to turn out bad.
Anomynous 167 wrote:

And I'm really resenting the monarch of the Lip Kingdom getting into that fight with me, due to his newfound treasury wealth over the past two pages.

Image




Edit: Also, funny that I'm over here denouncing Royalism, yet you declare that I'm ruler of the Lip Kingdom.
Lipkin wrote:
Anomynous 167 wrote:

you declare that I'm ruler of the Lip Kingdom.


He has it all wrong, too. It's quite clear from your avatar that your mustache is the true ruler of the Lip Kingdom.
Anomynous 167 wrote:
*le sigh*. Not only do I have to deal with the Lip Kingdom, but there is one huge Tuck coming after me.


"..coming after me."

Ha. Paranoid much?

Anomynous 167 wrote:

Bunny wasn't just extorted by a 'random group of people',


Yes she was. Some powerful thinkamancers got together and decided that because they could (powerful and in numbers) they were justified to force other thinkamancers to bend to their will.

Anomynous 167 wrote:
she was deemed guilty by a jury of her peers (in this case an illuminati of psychics.).


Jury of her peers? What? She was deemed guilty by a group of self appointed rulers of anybody who happens to be popped a thinkamancer.



Anomynous 167 wrote:
A group of people she willfully joined and sworn to uphold their laws. Laws which she broke knowing full-well of the consequences. Executing her fell entirely within their juristriction.


What?? We seem to be reading different comics.

You're going to need to make a case that she 'willfully joined and swore to uphold their laws'.

You're going to need to make a case that they have laws, and then how they have laws and via what binding authority other than 'do what we say or we'll kill you' (Granted, that's how all government works, but the GMTTA and the MK isn't governmental at all.)

You're going to then need to somehow justify that a random group of powerful casters getting together and declaring themselves a valid authority to create and enforce 'laws' over other casters.

You don't need to obviously, but I'd like to see you make the case to back your claims. As the GMTTA doesn't have any jurisdiction nor 'legal' authority. Just overwhelming force.




Anomynous 167 wrote:
Who am I to judge whether their actions were injust or not?"


No comment.


Anomynous 167 wrote:
Furthermore Bunny wasn't executed for discovering any dark truths. Bunny committed regicide using the string-cutting technique infront of several witnesses. Not only was this an illegal use of Thinkamancy,


'Illegal' in no way applies to bunny/the GMTTA.

Bunny was executed because she used thinkamancy that a group told her she'd better not or they'd kill her..

Like if the US gov't put a chip in your brain and told you to follow orders or the chip would explode. (Well, you're in their jurisdiction, so it's your fault you didn't follow orders and your head exploded.)

Anomynous 167 wrote:
Edit: Might I add, Regicide is bad.
[/quote]

Killing a dictator with absolute life or death control over all his/her subjects is bad, but killing an individual who didn't do what they were told to do by a group of thugs is ok.

Interesting.


Watch out man, I'm coming after you! :)
Well, I do think that some posters occasionally enjoy fighting for the sake of fighting rather than feeling that silence is consent, or at least complicity.

I've been required to defend positions I couldn't honorably abandon often enough to see the value in enjoying the contest itself. The fact is that if you don't let yourself take pleasure in fighting, you won't be very good at it. Which is unacceptable when you have a moral responsibility to fight as best you can.

But I don't see a fight over who is completely to blame for the unfortunate situation with Bunny being deemed Bad by the GMTTA as a compelling moral issue. I like Bunny. But she's not completely innocent, and the danger she posed was real enough that I can respect the GMTTA feeling they had to contain it. I like some of the Minds, though I see the group as a whole as being terribly flawed. Parson found them convenient allies despite their conflicting agenda, and that applies to the reason some of the Minds tolerate the methods of the GMTTA. But I don't view the high motives for association with them as absolving anyone completely of the guilt of what they do and are. Decisions can be opened and argued, and if the GMTTA had a less drastic option than putting a badness spell on Bunny it should have been explored. If there wasn't a less drastic option than that for such an ambiguous situation, then they shouldn't have needed Parson to tell them to revisit that decision.

But had Ponzie become ruler, and swayed Bunny to continue helping Bill develop his "Real Dolling"...I won't say it was categorically wrong to do what was necessary to ensure that didn't happen. I will say that it should have been understood as a response to a distinct and serious threat, and that when the threat changed the response should have been revisited. If they had a response that would be less permanent than Badness, they should have used it, and if they didn't, they should have made a less permanent (even if functionally identical) category for such a situation.

Someone should have explored that Decision space.

I lean towards expecting the GMTTA to have lived up to their high ideals and treating Bunny's youthful indiscretion as being forgivable, if definitely something best left behind. But I don't mistake the GMTTA for having absolute power or total omniscience. I think they could have been honestly mistaken.

Except for the part about refusing to ever admit that they could have made a mistake.
Key distinction between the Great Minds and any reasonable sort of judicial system is that they make up their own rules, with no accountability to any independent legislature, and don't even feel obligated to explain what those rules actually are until some poor bastard has already unwittingly broken them. Maybe not even then. In the real world, "ignorance is not an excuse" because the laws are a matter of public record, so it's at least theoretically possible to know what you'll get in trouble for doing without having to learn the hard way.

There's also the issue that, for twenty years or more, they had nothing to offer Bunny but recrimination and paranoid spite. Supposedly their highest loyalty is to Thinkamancy as a discipline, but does that leave any room for loyalty to individual thinkamancers? Surely they could have offered her more options - editing the crucial details out of Bill and Ponzie's memories, for example, would surely have been more palatable to Bunny's Duty than murdering the side's heir and a crucial caster. I guess they Decided selling solutions instead of compounding problems would have made them too much like Charlie.
Don was open minded. He went full Royalist Taliban after Queen Bea's demise. Consider this:
Anomynous 167 wrote:

Who turned Transilvito into an Oligarchy (BAT PACK) from Monarchy? Don. Who was convinced by the late Ponzie that he was running his side wrong, and that he should run the entire side as a Meritocracy? Don.

Up until here, yes, he was open-minded enough to see that royalty shouldn't be the sole determination for governance.
Anomynous 167 wrote:
Who was swayed into the Royalist movement by the noble sacrafices of Queen Bee? Don.

And it was a bad call. Royalism is the Erfworld equivalent of ISIS: You're either a Royal side, or an enemy that must be destroyed at all costs. It's part of the whole Erfworld concept of turning the usual D&D stereotypes upside down.
Anomynous 167 wrote:
Who was Queen Jillian's staunchest backer (before Charlie started backing her)? Don.

Also a big mistake. She tried to croak his CWL and she already had Charlie's backing, it just wasn't as notorious as it was on books 2 and 3.
Anomynous 167 wrote:
Who was able to entertain the ideas of Jillian betraying TV, Charlie being a fallen titan and Parson being of the City of Heroes? Don.

The fallen titan ruse and Parson being from the City of Heroes were made possible because of Don's zealotry concerning his fundamentalist Royalism. Parson himself comments on pulling this off because it's something he can be nudged to believe.
Anomynous 167 wrote:
Who punished Vanna for being an Agent of Charlie, then let her into the folds of TV after hearing her story? Caesar? no, Don.

Don didn't turn her to TV because of her story, he did it because he loved her. Caesar correctly suspected that she would still do Charlie's bidding under TV and ordered her back to the dungeons.
Anomynous 167 wrote:

Who in his most recent discoveries found out that his wavering faith in Jillian was unfounded and that he should have been more faithful? You guessed it. AND who had the brains to realise that a gun is useless with no bullets? Don, not Caesar.

And then followed up by pulling off a sadistic choice on Caesar, solely fueled by his Royalist zealotry, endangering his own side by placing it against Fate. Bunny must have known this; Don's actions would've ended TV as a side.
As others have pointed out, his signamancy was decaying. TV went from a racketeering side to a near-broke, falling one where the sides they used to charge for "protection" schmuckers are now attacking TV cities and holding warlords for ransom. Based on the Carpool battle updates, it's entirely possible that without GK's alliance, TV would fall to Carpool in the next couple of turns.
Whether any of Don's calls were good or not is irrelevent, the point is that Don was able to re-evaluate his position based off of new information

danixdefcon5 wrote:
Don was open minded. He went full Royalist Taliban after Queen Bea's demise. Consider this:
Anomynous 167 wrote:

Who turned Transilvito into an Oligarchy (BAT PACK) from Monarchy? Don. Who was convinced by the late Ponzie that he was running his side wrong, and that he should run the entire side as a Meritocracy? Don.

Up until here, yes, he was open-minded enough to see that royalty shouldn't be the sole determination for governance.
Anomynous 167 wrote:
Who was swayed into the Royalist movement by the noble sacrafices of Queen Bee? Don.

And it was a bad call. Royalism is the Erfworld equivalent of ISIS: You're either a Royal side, or an enemy that must be destroyed at all costs. It's part of the whole Erfworld concept of turning the usual D&D stereotypes upside down.

Irrelevent. And we seem to be viewing Erfworld through different reality filters. Your filter seems to be that "Wah, the big bag Royals gang up on anyone who tries to run things differently, threatening their way of life": while in my reality Stanley was acting as an existential threat to all sides outside of Gobwin Knob, and had to be put down. Hard. Hence the coalition.

danixdefcon5 wrote:
Anomynous 167 wrote:
Who was Queen Jillian's staunchest backer (before Charlie started backing her)? Don.

Also a big mistake. She tried to croak his CWL and she already had Charlie's backing, it just wasn't as notorious as it was on books 2 and 3.

Also irrelevant (the 'mistake' part)
Jillian didn't have any of Charlie's backing until after Faq was refounded.
danixdefcon5 wrote:
Anomynous 167 wrote:
Who was able to entertain the ideas of Jillian betraying TV, Charlie being a fallen titan and Parson being of the City of Heroes? Don.

The fallen titan ruse and Parson being from the City of Heroes were made possible because of Don's zealotry concerning his fundamentalist Royalism. Parson himself comments on pulling this off because it's something he can be nudged to believe.
Anomynous 167 wrote:
Who punished Vanna for being an Agent of Charlie, then let her into the folds of TV after hearing her story? Caesar? no, Don.

Don didn't turn her to TV because of her story, he did it because he loved her. Caesar correctly suspected that she would still do Charlie's bidding under TV and ordered her back to the dungeons.

Don was in love with Bea (and not necessarily Vanna). Whether Caesar was correct in his decision is irrelevent (And I'd err on the side that he was incorrect), Caesar spent the entire night with his hands on his ears screaming LA LA LA LA LA, so he should be the most closed minded of all.
As Charlie did before Don, Don cought Vanna on a low moment, making her easilly turnable. She would no longer be Charlie's agent, but still doing what Charlie wanted.

danixdefcon5 wrote:

Anomynous 167 wrote:

Who in his most recent discoveries found out that his wavering faith in Jillian was unfounded and that he should have been more faithful? You guessed it. AND who had the brains to realise that a gun is useless with no bullets? Don, not Caesar.

And then followed up by pulling off a sadistic choice on Caesar, solely fueled by his Royalist zealotry, endangering his own side by placing it against Fate. Bunny must have known this; Don's actions would've ended TV as a side.
As others have pointed out, his signamancy was decaying. TV went from a racketeering side to a near-broke, falling one where the sides they used to charge for "protection" schmuckers are now attacking TV cities and holding warlords for ransom. Based on the Carpool battle updates, it's entirely possible that without GK's alliance, TV would fall to Carpool in the next couple of turns.


This wasn't a matter of pride or any "Royalist bullshit". Don wouldn't tell Caesar about his reasons because he couldn't tell Caesar about the incoming truce with Charlescom until after Parson turned to Transilvito and was dismissed/disbanded.

page 205 wrote:
http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/205
In fact, he was not privileged to know what his King talked about with other Rulers. Even in better days, that line had always been clear. And there were even parts of this agreement Don and Bunny had to keep secret from their own people, unless those clauses were triggered.

<emphasis added.>

Bunny and Don are clearly have an NDA with Charlescom that even temporarily limits them from informing their own units about the truce. I can think of two things that would cause the NDA* to expire: either Don succeeds in getting Parson to cast ,thus causing the truce to BE OFFICIAL and allowing the knowledge to be more publicised; or Charlie attacks TV, forcing Don to have to explain why they are suddenly 10 Million$ richer. Neither of which had happened, so Don was in no position to explain to Caesar anything at the time of his croaking.

*The non-universal one.

If the truce hasn't been voided, and Jillian does go after Transilvito's capital (instead of trying to retake her old one), then Charlescom is obligated to conquer Faq... the city. The very same Transilvitan city that has no Transilvitan units protecting it. Charlie is only penalized from harming Transilvitan units (he can take their unoccupied cities as he pleases).
Caesar telling Vinnie to attack Faq was a huge booping mistake. And in his heart, Caesar knows it since spent most of page 238 agonizing over the idea of him making a mistake because of shit he does not know.


Unless Vinnie is to end his turn in Otoh or Kibo, he is going to disband soon (fuck it, we know he is going to be living in a Neutral city).

Charlie and Faq shall each be attacking a separate Transilvitan capital site. And Caesar's fuck up shall be glorious. Parson will walk through another door. Transilvito will burn. Caesar Caesar will have his head on a pike (with a rat in his decapitated mouth). And Parson will have to explain to Tremenis why two rulers in Transilvito have been killed in the one week he has been staying in the capital as a guest.
Anomynous 167 wrote:
Whether any of Don's calls were good or not is irrelevent, the point is that Don was able to re-evaluate his position based off of new information
Um...we've yet to see any rulers who couldn't at least do that much. The crucial thing is whether a ruler is able to admit that one of their people came up with a better idea than the ruler, and reward that unit rather than punish them for it. Stanley learned to do this, and Slately could do it too. Olive Branch killed nearly all her most valuable units to prove how much better she was. We saw how she acted when forced to admit Wanda was right about something. Charlie...hasn't really admitted to his units when they were right and he was wrong, he's careful about letting any of his units know enough to tell him when he's wrong.
Anomynous 167 wrote:
Irrelevent. And we seem to be viewing Erfworld through different reality filters. Your filter seems to be that "Wah, the big bag Royals gang up on anyone who tries to run things differently, threatening their way of life": while in my reality Stanley was acting as an existential threat to all sides outside of Gobwin Knob, and had to be put down. Hard. Hence the coalition.
Stanley wasn't really an existential threat to all the sides around him. Yeah, he was out for conquest, but that's true of pretty much every side, some more patient than others. It was pretty much the royalty thing, and a lot of the other sides in the RCC thought it was kinda dumb to be taking it so far...which is why Jetstone and other core members of the RCC lost so heavily at Gobwin Knob.

On the other hand, that undermines the idea that "Royals = ISIS", most royals are content to prove their superiority over the course of time rather than put together big RCC alliances to curb-stomp every Overlord that comes along. Seaworld tolerated an idiosyncratic non-royal colony, meanwhile Delkey crushes their own royal colony for being too innovative. Olive Branch was not royal. Nor was OverLord Firebaugh.
Anomynous 167 wrote:
Whether Caesar was correct in his decision is irrelevent (And I'd err on the side that he was incorrect), Caesar spent the entire night with his hands on his ears screaming LA LA LA LA LA, so he should be the most closed minded of all.
No, it's extremely relevant. Worse, Don had no contingency for what to do if Caesar were correct, and that's really inexcusable. It's one thing for a ruler to be right, it's another thing to ignore the possibility of being wrong.
Anomynous 167 wrote:

As Charlie did before Don, Don cought Vanna on a low moment, making her easilly turnable. She would no longer be Charlie's agent, but still doing what Charlie wanted.
Bit of a finesse there that doesn't actually do TV a lot of good.
Anomynous 167 wrote:
This wasn't a matter of pride or any "Royalist bullshit". Don wouldn't tell Caesar about his reasons because he couldn't tell Caesar about the incoming truce with Charlescom until after Parson turned to Transilvito and was dismissed/disbanded.

page 205 wrote:
http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/205
In fact, he was not privileged to know what his King talked about with other Rulers. Even in better days, that line had always been clear. And there were even parts of this agreement Don and Bunny had to keep secret from their own people, unless those clauses were triggered.

<emphasis added.>

Bunny and Don are clearly have an NDA with Charlescom that even temporarily limits them from informing their own units about the truce.
That's...that's really a giant red flag. That is mega stupid and there's no way Bunny was on board with it, so basically Don...I'm sorry, he sold out his side and he knew he was selling them out. Whatever that agreement was, Bunny killed Don rather than let him go through with it. And Ben, with the bracer, calculates that was the best outcome.
"Don wouldn't have done it," said Benjamin. Meaning quittin' the royal Crown Coalition. Meaning stabbing Faq in the back. "We both know that."

Benjamin was Don's oldest remaining friend. What he might be feeling about this right now...Caesar could only guess at. Did he want to do unto Caesar like Bunny had done unto Don? Maybe he'd be right to.

Bats fluttered by the window, and Caesar took another drag. "Doesn't mean it was wrong," he said.

"It wasn't wrong," said Benjamin.

Caesar turned and looked at him in surprise. The caster's lips were pulled tight with bitter certainty. "But Don wouldn't have done it."

He blinked, "How do you know?"

"From the questions I asked the bracer, mainly." Benjamin raised his chin. "But Caesar, doesn't she feel like the real enemy? Doesn't Charlie?" He shook his head just a little tiny bit. "You didn't make a mistake, Caesar. But Don, Titans bless him, made plenty of 'em."
Ben is relying a lot on the bracer, a bit on his knowledge of Don, a bit on his gut. Caesar comes to the same conclusion, with a bit of his feelings about Bunny replacing some of Ben's perspectives. Ben knew and accepted that Don was the kind of king who might disband someone for pointing out when he was badly wrong. It was a thing he'd lived with for a long time. Didn't keep him from being Don's friend. But he did ask the bracer one time what the odds were Don would disband him over taking a stand on allying with GK. And didn't even bother to hide from Don the fact that he'd asked, or the answer he'd gotten (in fact, he tells Don that to make him trust the bracer, and it works).

Interestingly enough, Caesar is willing to consider that maybe Don would have been right to disband him, until he thinks it through a bit.
Anomynous 167 wrote:
I can think of two things that would cause the NDA* to expire: either Don succeeds in getting Parson to cast ,thus causing the truce to BE OFFICIAL and allowing the knowledge to be more publicised; or Charlie attacks TV, forcing Don to have to explain why they are suddenly 10 Million$ richer. Neither of which had happened, so Don was in no position to explain to Caesar anything at the time of his croaking.
You can imagine two things that might have been in that NDA, but what we know was in it was that Don couldn't ask advice from anyone on how badly Charlie was screwing them. And Don knew that when he agreed to it. And he knew that meant that Charlie knew that Don's people would tell him it was a bad agreement. Maybe he still thought they were all wrong and he was right. I don't really know how people who are at that stage of delusion think anymore.
Anomynous 167 wrote:
If the truce hasn't been voided, and Jillian does go after Transilvito's capital (instead of trying to retake her old one), then Charlescom is obligated to conquer Faq... the city. The very same Transilvitan city that has no Transilvitan units protecting it. Charlie is only penalized from harming Transilvitan units (he can take their unoccupied cities as he pleases).
What?
Anomynous 167 wrote:

Caesar telling Vinnie to attack Faq was a huge booping mistake. And in his heart, Caesar knows it since spent most of page 238 agonizing over the idea of him making a mistake because of shit he does not know.
Caesar knows he's not omniscient, that he could be wrong. And he's willing to discuss that with units he trusts to put his side's interests first. That doesn't mean he is wrong. In fact, it gives him a far better chance of not being wrong any more than is unavoidable.
Anomynous 167 wrote:
Unless Vinnie is to end his turn in Otoh or Kibo, he is going to disband soon (fuck it, we know he is going to be living in a Neutral city).
What? Unless Charlie kills Caesar or knocks out TV itself, that makes no sense.
Anomynous 167 wrote:
Charlie and Faq shall each be attacking a separate Transilvitan capital site. And Caesar's fuck up shall be glorious. Parson will walk through another door. Transilvito will burn. Caesar Caesar will have his head on a pike (with a rat in his decapitated mouth). And Parson will have to explain to Tremenis why two rulers in Transilvito have been killed in the one week he has been staying in the capital as a guest.
This...probably isn't happening. Faq has a high-level GK warlord sitting in it, the only Faq forces that can attack it aren't going to do so without CC assistance which may not be immediately available (CC may already have ended turn, unless it is currently allied with an even newer side than Faq). That could end up costing CC multiple contract dings. Even one is just not worth taking the city at the moment. And TV also has the GK bat trick ready, if CC tries to hit the capital, it's going to cost them insane amounts to take it. Jillian is...not really in a position to take TV, not with what she's still got left after Marie and Georgia finish whatever it is they're doing. She probably can't get back to Faq either, not before TV can reinforce it some.

I can understand why Don made the mistakes he made. I think that Caesar is right to be worried that he's screwing up. I hope he's planning to take some serious steps to counter moves by CC and Faq. But fundamentally, I think that this outing by Parson is going to go in the "win" column under "diplomatic victories" for purposes of narrative economy, and it won't count if TV is wiped out as soon as they ally with GK. Maybe Jillian doesn't end up a mentally incapacitated prisoner in ICFYS by the end of this turn, along with nearly all her remaining forces. We'll see. But she's about two floors away from it, as of the last update. We might know more by tonight. Or we'll be back with Ivan and Claud, or the Dirtamancers being informed that there is an emergency at the Temple, or...who even knows? I can't even guess where the next update will be, let alone what's going to happen.

But when the bracer says breaking the RCC and hitting Faq wasn't the wrong move for TV, that's basically as close to WOT as we get in comic.

Of course, that means the real villain here is Benjamin. He's been spending a lot of time with that thing, he probably knew something bad would happen to Don. I'm willing to bet he asked it whether Caesar would take the throne. And then he just kept quiet about that and let it happen.

Pretty cold. He was Don's oldest friend. Don was probably his oldest friend.

But the side comes first. Caesar gets that. For all her flaws, Jillian gets it too. Stanley is starting to get it. But Don...Don forgot it. There were reasons he forgot it. There are other things that matter too. Don wasn't a bad king. I liked him, and I'm gonna miss him if nobody finds a reason to decrypt him. If Wanda decrypts him but then treats him like cannon fodder, I'm going to be a little upset about that.

But that master plan of his, to outmaneuver Charlie after sending Parson back to Ohio...I seriously doubt that would have gotten past "That's...really weird. Don't know what I'm looking at, but I can't turn him." At which point maybe the exact words in that secret deal he signed might have handed his treasury and maybe a city or two to CC.
This may not be that big of a blow to the minds. Not withstanding the loss of its members, the Temple is replaceable. Its not the only thing the Thinkamancers have that's made of Polarised Stuff. For that reason I say it was explosives that took out the column, and not a case of Charlie undermining it with the Wrench.

I'm now picturing all the remaining Great Minds having all their meatings on their gwiffon spring-mount http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/123. Which was made of the aforementioned polarised stuff.


An old comment of mine just dawned on me
Vendanna wrote:

Love the expressión of skyy on the last image, poor parson his work has been increasing on his deck while he was away, and that's not counting once he discovers that the "great minds" have been taking him for a fool on his deal. (Jack is the one that will get outraged by that, making a fool of the good lord, when that should be him!)
:)

Speaking of the Great Minds, I've figured out their greatest weakness: the Temple 8-)

Holy shit... I was right :shock: . The Temple really was the Great Minds' greatest weakness. I thought I was just punning, but here Isaac stands today.

edit: included page number in quotes.