Book 3 - Page 24

Book 3 - Page 24
Comic - Book 3 - Page 24
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peteratjet wrote:
I think that Faq is still allied to Jetstone, and so will take their turn after the GK turn ends. If they still have a turn by then.

Which gives me a thought: Suppose for a moment that the Queen of Faq is, in fact, as dead as a door nail. Then further suppose, that she was able to designate an heir 'twixt stirrup and the ground. And finally, suppose this heir was Wanda and she chose to ally with Gobwin Knob right now. When, in such a case, would Faq take their turn?
Hmm, ignoring that I don't believe Jillian can appoint Wanda due to her not being a Faq unit at the moment, I think they would be able to move as soon as Wanda took over and made the alliance. I don't think Faq has gone yet, and Wanda would have to break alliance with the RCC2, in my opinion, to make the alliance with GK legal, so Faqs units would get their start of turn benefits and be able to do whatever.

It's an interesting question, because we've seen sort of the opposite situation with Home and Delkey, but enough differences exist that I can't take that at face value.
oslecamo2 temp wrote:
twhitt wrote:
I'm pretty sure Stanley's miss wasn't fate, and it wasn't even a miss. It was a distraction. Ansom was right behind Jillian at this point, and Stanley had every reason in the world to know that, but Jillian didn't. Firing the weapon was just killing time, not an attack intended to injure Jillian. People seem to take this "Yeah, I know" line as if Stanley was unfazed by failure, but it's always seemed to me like he wouldn't take genuine failure well at all. He's just not that mature.


Stanley's probably one of the most mature characters in the comic. He may not be that smart, he may not have etiquette, he may lack some self-confidence, but he knows how to keep his head cool when the going gets though.

Right at start:The situation is grim. We need a new warlord. Who should we tap?
When hearing his dwagons were sent into a suicide mission:How many did we lose?
After half said dwagons get wiped out in that suicide mission:There's no point in disbanding you. Your upkeep'll be paid as long as the city stands. Even you, Hamster.
When his foolmancer was even crazier than usual: But we might not make it y'see? If you don't pull yourself together and cast a real veil.
When facing the bat army of doom Stand up! You don't have to be afraid!

Ironically, it's refined pretty characters like Ansom and Jillian and Wanda that get hissy fits in times of stress that make them commit great errors that get them killed/captured in a frequent basis. Even in this battle we saw how Jillian went bersek and threw away the victory offered to her by Charlie while Stanley remained chill all the time.

After all, Stanley would've never survived all the way to Overlord from a simple piker if he hadn't matured long ago.


I have nothing to add to this other then spot on.

Stanley might not be a philosopher like Jack. He's not a tactical genius like Parson.

But give the man credit. He's a soldier through and through. And he acts like one.
Whispri wrote:
peteratjet wrote:
I think that Faq is still allied to Jetstone, and so will take their turn after the GK turn ends. If they still have a turn by then.

Which gives me a thought: Suppose for a moment that the Queen of Faq is, in fact, as dead as a door nail. Then further suppose, that she was able to designate an heir 'twixt stirrup and the ground. And finally, suppose this heir was Wanda and she chose to ally with Gobwin Knob right now. When, in such a case, would Faq take their turn?


That's an interesting question, if an implausible scenario. I still believe the Ruler and probably the new Heir have to be in the Capital to so designate. Wanda seems unlikely, regardless.

I don't think we've seen new Faq outside of an alliance yet, so we can't be sure when their natural turn order would be. There are (at least) three sides in the current battlespace. It's not clear if Charlescomm and Faq are technically allied, or who else is in the alliance and whose turn order is operative. Stanley took off from Gobwin Knob at dawn, so it appears their turn is currently first, which in turn is evidence that Charlescomm is allied. On the other hand, Charlescomm is unlikely to be in an alliance with any other side with which Faq is likely to be allied, namely Jetstone or Translyvito. Book 1 did seem to show a natural turn order of Charlescomm, Translyvito, Gobwin Knob, and Jetstone, among those sides.

There's a number of permutations for the impact on turn order for the scenario of Faq breaks current alliances if any and then allies with Gobwin Knob. I feel no shame in going through them all:

1) Charlescomm -> Gobwin Knob -> Faq:
If Charlescomm and Faq are the only allies, then Charlescomm would be using Faq's turn order currently, which must be after Gobwin Knob if Gobwin Knob went first. Faq breaking alliance would theoretically and ironically suspend Gobwin Knob's turn in favor of Charlescomm. Faq proceeding to ally with Gobwin Knob would further suspend their turn until Faq's natural position.

2) Charlescomm -> Faq -> Gobwin Knob:
Pretty similar to 1, but plausible if Charlescomm and Faq were both allied with another side whose turn is later than Gobwin Knob and broke simultaneously, with Faq's natural order being in the middle.

3) Faq -> Charlescomm -> Gobwin Knob:
This could be the case if Faq is not officially allied with Charlescomm, but Faq is allied with a later side like Jetstone, and Faq's natural turn is even earlier (I've heard speculation that younger sides go first). Faq breaking alliance should theoretically suspend Gobwin Knob's turn in favor of Faq. This might cause problems for Vinny at Faq, but sucks to be him. If Faq didn't end their turn and then allied with Gobwin Knob, they would in turn be suspended in favor of Charlescomm.

4) Faq -> Gobwin Knob -> Charlescomm:
This would only be plausible if Faq and Charlescomm were allied with Jetstone or some other later side and Charlescomm remained when Faq broke alliance, and Faq's natural order was first. Theoretically Gobwin Knob would be suspsended when Faq broke alliance, and immediately reinstated when Faq allied with Gobwin Knob. Presumably once Charlie noticed the shenanigans, he'd also break alliance to basically trigger option 2 and suspend Gobwin Knob and Faq's turn, if he thought he could do anything useful by preventing them from leaving the hex or bringing new units in, and he didn't have other contractual considerations.

5) Gobwin Knob -> Faq -> Charlescomm:
Pretty similar to 4, if Faq naturally falls after Gobwin Knob and Charlescomm is allied later. There would seemingly be no disruption / suspension as Faq broke alliance, and allying with Gobwin Knob would bring Faq on turn. Similar to option 4, I would expect Charlie to break alliance and trigger option 1.

6) Gobwin Knob -> Charlescomm -> Faq:
Similar to 4 and 5, if Faq's turn naturally falls last among relevant sides (even after Jetstone), and Charlescomm maintains alliance. Faq breaking alliance during Gobwin Knob's turn wouldn't affect the order. Allying with Gobwin Knob would seemingly suspend their turn if they haven't ended yet, so I doubt they would accept until then. Regardless, similar to 4, once Charlie realized what was up I expect he'd break alliance as well to trigger option 2.

7) [Charlescomm] -> Gobwin Knob -> Faq:
You thought we'd be done at 6 huh? It's vaguely possible that Charlescomm is unallied and finished their turn already, and the relative nature of time allowed Gobwin Knob to still start at dawn in Stanley's hex. This is admittedly unlikely given Charlie's link with Vanna, but there's no proof that it couldn't happen off turn for Charlie and extra-alliance, even if there were technically rules against it to be Carnimanced or Arkendished to allow it. Charlie hadn't had any units in the battlespace whose turn we needed to see, until he acquired some local natural allies. Faq breaking alliance with other sides if naturally after Gobwin Knob would have no impact on turn order. Allying with Gobwin Knob would presumably bring Faq on turn as well.

8) [Charlescomm] -> Faq -> Gobwin Knob:
Similar to 7, except Faq would have been allied later than Gobwin Knob. Faq breaking alliance would presumably temporarily suspend Gobwin Knob, and allying would reinstate them on the same turn.

The lesson to be learned here, I think, is that alliance based turn suspension is a mechanic that Parson should figure out how to exploit, if he can find any allies willing to play along.

And then a new comic was posted while I wrote this monster, and it's unlikely to be read.
Red wrote:
The lesson to be learned here, I think, is that alliance based turn suspension is a mechanic that Parson should figure out how to exploit, if he can find any allies willing to play along.


I hate to be a downer but my gut instinct is that it wouldn't work. If there were a normal usable mechanic for suspending another side's turn and taking your own turn then Stanley wouldn't have been so utterly shocked when it happened to him during the battle of Spacerock.

You seem to be able to manipulate turn order with alliances but at this point we have not seen anyone stop another sides turn like this, and I just don't think we will see it happen by such a mundane method.
Daefaroth wrote:
You seem to be able to manipulate turn order with alliances but at this point we have not seen anyone stop another sides turn like this, and I just don't think we will see it happen by such a mundane method.


It happened to Homekey in Digdoug 18.

Quote:
He was full of juice. Homekey‘s turn had started!
...
And then he knew something had truly gone wrong.
A sensation came to him that he‘d never felt before: it was now not Homekey‘s turn any more. He had move, but he couldn‘t use it. There were enemy units in front of him...the Delkey archers and warlords. Delkey had broken their alliance! And because their natural turn occurred first, Homekey‘s turn was now suspended.
Red wrote:

I don't think we've seen new Faq outside of an alliance yet, so we can't be sure when their natural turn order would be. There are (at least) three sides in the current battlespace. It's not clear if Charlescomm and Faq are technically allied, or who else is in the alliance and whose turn order is operative. Stanley took off from Gobwin Knob at dawn, so it appears their turn is currently first, which in turn is evidence that Charlescomm is allied. On the other hand, Charlescomm is unlikely to be in an alliance with any other side with which Faq is likely to be allied, namely Jetstone or Translyvito. Book 1 did seem to show a natural turn order of Charlescomm, Translyvito, Gobwin Knob, and Jetstone, among those sides.


I was thinking that natural turn order appears to be simply alphabetical, but Transylvito going before Gobwin Knob does not fit that pattern .
Homekey and Delkey were allies, Delkeys natural turn was before Homekey. There is no proof that they move back to their original turn position, only that they move before Homekey.

Natural order: D -> ? -> H
D and H allied: ? -> [D+H]
What you think happens when D and H break alliance on ?'s turn: D -> ? -> H
What I think happens: ? -> D -> H

1) GK -> [CC+F]
CC and F break alliance
GK -> CC -> F

2) GK -> [CC+F+?]
CC, F and ? break alliance
GK -> CC -> F -> ?

3) CC -> GK -> [F+JS]
F and JS break alliance
CC -> GK -> F -> JS

4) GK -> [F+CC+JS]
F breaks alliance
GK -> F -> [CC+JS]

5) GK -> F -> [CC+JS]
GK and F form alliance
[GK+F] -> [CC+JS]

6) GK -> [CC+JS+F]
F breaks alliance
GK -> [CC+JS] -> F

7) CC -> GK -> F
GK and F form alliance
CC -> [GK+F]

8) CC -> GK -> [F+JS]
F and JS break alliance
CC -> GK -> F -> JS
Spruce wrote:
Homekey and Delkey were allies, Delkeys natural turn was before Homekey. There is no proof that they move back to their original turn position, only that they move before Homekey.

Natural order: D -> ? -> H
D and H allied: ? -> [D+H]
What you think happens when D and H break alliance on ?'s turn: D -> ? -> H
What I think happens: ? -> D -> H


That's certainly plausible, though I'm not sure if alliances can be broken off turn. Broken alliances could, on the day they are broken, take their turns sequentially within the position that the alliance would have had. I'd find it weird that they would have a different turn order today than they would have tomorrow, but it would certainly minimize the turn suspension mechanic to only affecting prior allies, and even then only when the alliance is broken during their concurrent turn.

There would still be exploits possible, if not as useful, in intentionally deferring a side's turn by allying with a later side, but that's already possible without involving alliance breaking. I suppose you could at least have the element of surprise by maintaining such an alliance and then breaking it the day before attacking to move before your target, which is basically what Transylvito and Jillian did when they intercepted Stanley on the way to Faq.

I wonder if natural turn order is known or knowable metadata, either through intrinsic Ruler sense or certain Caster spells, or if it can only be determined empirically. I'm actually doing a skim through of the archives trying to get every piece of information about turn order, mostly to see if I can suss out a pattern on natural turn order. I'll probably make a post with any findings, and maybe update the wiki.
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