Book 3 - Page 226

Parson's Flower Journal 2

Book 3 - Page 226
Comic - Book 3 - Page 226
Recent posts... (See full thread)
Lord Dominator wrote:
Ozamataz Buckshank wrote:
Remote linkups and extrauniverse channels are only dependent on being max size on top of Comm Tower, and he had the 'dish back up there a scant 14 pages later (and was planning to as early as the page where he took it down). Remember, he was planning to link to Vanna.
Huh. And here I thought all "We have to get it back up again" meant was that he'd hurry to get Ivan to fix his tower, instead of it "not happening soon".

Oh well, schmuckers for everyone who voiced their disagreement with me on that point!

I was gonna correct you by pointing to the end of the very page you linked, but the fact that I didn't know the meaning of the word "Scaffold" would have completely undermined my argument.
AggieDan wrote:
Bookmight wrote:
I love that Maggie's doll/golem is standing off the left looking like a moll, but instead of a spear is holding one of those figurine pushers battle coordinators use to push troops. Anyone got a technical name for those?

Actually, I'm thinking that is not the Maggie-doll. I'm assuming Maggie's clothes haven't been returned to her because they are still on the doll. ...


I think Bookmight is referring to the doll (note the stitches) holding the croupier-style stick/rake near the far end of the table, not Maggie. 'though I don't think that's the Maggie doll either, since it has black hair.

AggieDan wrote:
...Should we take it as signamantically significant she is now in what I consider to be her more "corporate" dress as opposed to the more casual outfit she wore when captured?


In any case, going back to her Iron Lady roots would be highly-appropriate signamancy if they're going to dismantle the trade unions (which are pretty much how the casters are organized in the MK). Especially the GMTTA, considering her Number 6 outfit.

(Come to think about it though, Margaret Thatcher signamancy would fit more on a Moneymancer.)
JadedDragoon wrote:
Lipkin wrote:
JadedDragoon wrote:

Let me stop you right there. What loyalty did Ossomer retain? He didn't remain loyal to Jetstone. Or his Father. Or his Brother. Soo....

I know it's been a long time since the Battle of Spacerock for us readers but I've started seeing this idea that Ossomer turned back out of loyalty more and more often recently. This is not what happened.

Ossomer turned back to Jetstone because he deeply valued honor. He felt his new side was not honorable. He felt his new mistress was not honorable. He felt his new Chief Warlord (Parson) was not honorable. He definitely felt his new ruler was not honorable. And, while he had no particular loyalty to jetstone, he still saw Jetstone as an honorable side run by honorable people. This is why he turned back. Not because of loyalty... but because of valuation... the high valuation he personally placed on honor.

You are right that the decrypted's devotion is not without limits. Ossomer does prove that. But it's not because of pre-existing loyalties.

I strongly disagree. Ossomer very much turned back to Jetstone because it was Jetstone, not because they were honorable. Reread this update.

http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/145

Ossomer is in tears watching the tower of Jetstone fall. He thinks about the tile not being "in its place" and asks the Titans if that is fair. Because of decryption, he can't understand why he's so upset, but the symbolism is plain to see. Ossomer is broken by fighting against Jetstone, his true home.


Well I don't understand why you strongly disagree as even the link you posted seems to support my argument. But we will get back to that.

Let start at the beginning of his "fall" shall we?

It starts here where we see Ossamer's pride showing. Ossamer is a prideful person. Somewhat arrogant. Such people put high value on their ideals. They see their ideals as what makes them better than others.

Then, in this update, we have Ossamer being berated by Tramennis for his side's manipulations of the rules and tactics of Erfworld. Yes you and I know that's just war... but not for some one who believes in honor. For some one who believes in honor there are things you can do... but don't. Not because they aren't beneficial but because they aren't fair. We see Ossamer acting ashamed for the actions of his new side. Shortly after we see this update where Ossamer is told to account for his side's actions and is simply unable to speak.

Then, in this update, we clearly see him considering the lack of honor displayed by his current side. He also muses on fairness (a core component of honor).

Ossamer wrote:
Being Royal did mean something, after all. It meant taking the mantle of responsibility for the power the Titans had granted you. Ossomer had stood up all his life, straight as a marble column, to bear the weight of that responsibility. He knew that stance when he saw it, and Father carried himself that way now.

And he, slinking in the saddle after betraying a parley, no longer did. He'd had no answer for Tramennis' outrage, because he felt it too. He was shamed.

Below, Lady Sylvia was stacking with the forward purples. He imagined she planned to tumble all units in a shower of rubble, without thought for the protocols of Royal capture and execution, for bestowing dignity and honor upon a fallen enemy king in their final moments. Let soldiers and Commanders and Kings all fall together into a pile.

Had the Titans no use for such distinctions, in the Age of Hamster? No, surely they must.

Surely the new mantle of Titanic power must be carried with even greater majesty. In some important way, the disciples of Lady Firebaugh and the Arkenpliers were failing their Duty, and would pay the price.


He mentions the tile here for the first time but talks about how before (when he was with Jetstone) the tile was out of place but now it seemed to be exactly where it belonged. This is happening at the same time Slately is considering his terrible signamancy and resolving to lead a battle for once. This is happening shortly after Slately realized Ansum and Ossomer might have the signamancy of noble warriors but they did not have the leadership or tactical genius Tramennis had. The tile could be symbolic for a lot of things... it could be symbolic for how Ossamer was now where he belonged (with Gobwin Knob). There are lots of possible interpretations, but most likely it has to do with fairness... as both times the tile is mentioned Ossomer asks if it's fair (which, again, ties it to honor) and never brings up fairness any other time.

Then we have the update you linked to. In this, again, Ossamer talks about fairness. Again the tile symbolizes fairness and now, with Sylvia's purples threatening to topple the entire tower, fairness had fallen. What's more if you follow the last part of that update this tile symbolizing the fall of fairness gets entangled in Sylvia's carnied fate and ends up deflecting an arrow Artemis was sure would have been a critical hit... yet another example of unfairness and this tile being connected.

It's also not clear at all that he is in tears over the fall of the Spacerock's tower. Quite the contrary, in context of the previous update that included Ossamer (specifically the above quoted portion) his duress is clearly about the dishonorable way the battle is progressing. Because, as I said above, he saw his new side as dishonorable and his old side as honorable. As an honorable person he belonged with an honorable side but because of Gobwin Knob's dishonorable methods, he is not. So, yes, you are right... the symbolism is quite clear.

Here we have Ossomer talking about nobility in the sense of one's actions. When Slately challenges Ossomer on what he would know of nobility Ossomer is clearly offended. Again, honor and nobility are very closely related.

And immediately after that we have the final words spoken by Ossamer before turning back to Jetstone: "But father, I do yet know honor." The next time we see Ossomer, he is wearing the livery of Jetstone.

Conclusion
All, and I mean ALL, of Ossomer's internal conflict leading up to him turning centers around pride, fairness, honor, and nobility. Almost every update he is in after being uncroaked talks about fairness, honor, or nobility. In fact, starting with the first update I linked to I ended up linking to every single update that followed with Ossamer in it... because they all support my argument. None of it centers on loyalty.

So no. I don't get how you can have a strong opinion that he turned back out of loyalty other than you just having simply misread or misremembered the details of these updates. None of them talk about how much he wants to be with his family. How much he misses them. How much he fears for Jetstone or the city of Spacerock. In fact, he even works on tactics for how to take Spacerock. All of them deal with his being conflicted over the tactics of his new side. That he turned back out of loyalty is not a reasonable conclusion to all that. Not even a little.

None of the things you list preclude Ossomer turning out of loyalty to Jetstone and a feeling of not belonging in Gobwin Knob, they only give reasons for the loyalty.
nnescio wrote:

(Come to think about it though, Margaret Thatcher signamancy would fit more on a Moneymancer.)


Signamancer or Changemancer, you mean. The one would reflect her career as a lawyer, the other her career as a chemist. Both of which were careers in which she accomplished greater things than she ever did as PM (unless you count turning the north of England into a post-industrial wasteland as "great").

She wasn't brilliant as an economist, to be fair. She'd lost touch with the struggle of the working class by the time she took power, and didn't really understand the effects of her decisions on people close to the breadline. Which is part of why she ended up making some really unpopular choices whilst in office.

As a chemist, she was one of the people responsible for developing the fields of X-Ray crystallography and diffraction, which are invaluable to analytical and applied science in the modern era. She was also one of the people responsible for developing soft-serve ice cream, spreadable butter, margarine, plastics, and soaps that are still sold commercially. She discovered several compounds, published a handful of papers, and was responsible for at least one breakthrough discovery.

As a lawyer, she worked on patent and tax law, making a specialty of helping working and middle class families to file their taxes and avoid fines for late or incorrect filing. She helped to re-invent the tax code as a result, and changed the way that taxes are handled in Britain.

Both of these careers influenced her days in politics, and informed the choices that she made. She was a famously cold and analytical woman, thinking logically rather than emotionally about the effects of her governance, and fighting fiercely when pressed. For example, she was pressed by the trade unions, and fought back harder than anybody expected. The result was the collapse of the trade unions, the mining industry, and much of British manufacturing. She's still reviled by many for this action, but had been pushed into a corner and was resolved not to show weakness. She saw breaking the backs of her enemies as her only choice. She fought, she won, and the resentment of those who were caught in the crossfire is still legendary today.

This, and similar determination shown over the Falkland Islands (still considered by many to be the only good thing she did), as well as her part in the negotiations to end the Cold War earned her the nickname "The Iron Lady" from the Russians. Ronald Reagan even credited her as having been a key to his eventual dismantling of the iron curtain. However, she paid the price of having focused on foreign affairs and being seen as an emotionless robot domestically, and was ousted by her own party shortly after the treaty to bring down the iron curtain and end the cold war was signed.

Maggie's signamancy as a thinkamancer in this context makes perfect sense. She's more logical than emotional, knows the ins and outs of fields other than that which is immediately obvious (and thus has more to draw on to solve a problem than might be thought), and she's absolutely devoted to bringing down the big-picture enemy (which could end up costing her everything). Her mind is her weapon, and her weakness.
JadedDragoon wrote:
So no. I don't get how you can have a strong opinion that he turned back out of loyalty other than you just having simply misread or misremembered the details of these updates. None of them talk about how much he wants to be with his family. How much he misses them. How much he fears for Jetstone or the city of Spacerock. In fact, he even works on tactics for how to take Spacerock. All of them deal with his being conflicted over the tactics of his new side. That he turned back out of loyalty is not a reasonable conclusion to all that. Not even a little.


I agree, he didn't turn out of loyalty, he turned because he was going against his "number" or however transilvitian units babble about. which was of an honorable warrior Parangon of Honor.
Good luck storming the castle...

Parson has no excellent Lord Hamster plan. This would be the place to say "if we only had a wheelbarrow that would be something."

So what assets does GK and Parson have that he doesn't know that he has?

When will he learn what he has available? And what exactly will he have available?

Marie seem to me to be the key, but predicting what a Predictamancer is going to do isn't easy. I've thought about it and have some guesses, but have no idea which if any might work out. But first, what is out there that the Hamster doesn't know about yet?

Well, one thing he does have that he knows about is a not-official alliance with Transylvito. The turn bats to GK trick to defeat Charlie is easily changed to turn some GK units to TV, negating Jillian's special protection. I think it would work, but it hasn't been mentioned yet. Without a formal alliance, TV units wouldn't be agents of GK even if they are cooperating with them.

Whatever plan Marie has, I think that it will involve getting Parson to execute it. The whole fight in portal park shows that she appreciates his leadership. Plus his force in TV, plus TV's own casters, are a big addition for whatever plan they try in the MK.

Janis is going to hook up with Marie and Sizemore. I doubt that Marie will run off elsewhere before that happens, but it is possible if her role requires her to go somewhere in order to follow her predicted path. She can use a messenger to give her instructions, possibly Annie.

Who else is in Marie's crew, and who will she go for first?

Carniac is on her team, and certainly could act as a key messenger to coodinate a plan. After all, he already played a big role delivering her message to Janis.

Go directly to TV, to get Parson and crew on board and make a plan? I think it's possible, but there may be more assets to grab in the MK beforehand.

Is Isaac on her crew? The Great Minds can't go against an agreed decision, but are free to take their own actions outside such things, and he (and a few others) worked with Marie before.

Could a Predictamancer and Thinkamancer link to allow channels to be used which are not under Charlie's observation? This is a lot like avoiding enemy attacks in combat. Maggie's lack of juice limits GK's ability to coordinate a plan, but Isaac or another MK Thinkamancer wouldn't be so restricted. A very brief series of messages to get everyone up to speed could allow a plan to be built (especially as Thinkspace can allow time-out planning).

The New Bargain blocks scrying on the island, but are things under the bedrock (which is immune to scrying normally) affected? I wouldn't think so. A bit of lookamancy and findamancy and some quick directions to Claud and Ivan, and the chase after the action figure and the bunker stash could get a lot easier. Especially if Parson is able to give them orders to ignore the truce.

What are the Great Minds really after? The deal to censure Charlie, as good as it seems and as much as RVC seems happy to see it happen, doesn't seem like it will do much to actually defeat Charlie anytime soon. Have those like Isaac who helped get Parson into Erfworld to defeat Charlie given up on the plan in order to keep the MK safe, or are they (at least some of them) still supporting him?

After all, if GK can manage to get Wanda and company free, without the GM's being provably, directly involved, would they still get their judgement against Charlescomm in the MK?

A judgement against GK wouldn't be so good either, but if Wanda and company get back to Spacerock with the Pliers, the MK won't have much power to enforce anything against them. Trying to block their portal wouldn't be nearly as effective with two dirtamancers and possibly a tool to hack the portal.

A bunker load of guns delivered to Spacerock would more than equalize the few captured weapons the dirtamancers have at the Mansion. What MK "soldiers" does the GK and TV "alliance" have?

Sizemore, even though he hates violence, will make ammo and use guns when ordered. Ace of course would be happy to have a whole collection of new weapons to play with. Benjamin would, I think, back any play which has a good chance to work. Marie already was happy to use them.

We then get Claud and Ivan, who should have juice and the Wonky Wrench to use.

We also have Bill, who is creepy but not obviously disloyal to his side, and Vanna, whose loyalty is uncertain but since Vinnie is a Regent for now, she may not actively rebel.

If the escape from the Dirtmansion works, we also have that whole crew, including the caster Shawn. Any dominatingly winning plan is going to get them back, as well as Wanda.

Then we also have Bunny. Part of Parson's plan to keep Caesar happy has to be to get her into the MK, and somehow get the Pliers and Wanda back together again. Even just as a repeat of Janis's plan with Marie, a single brief touch long enough to get Bunny back, would be the minimum needed to keep Caesar's hope and alliance intact.

Parson makes a 9th, the team leader, not counting those now held prisoner.

A hacked portal and guns, that would give GK an extremely potent force, probably enough to ensure that they control their portal and get at least a balanced standoff at the Dirtamansion.


Nobody expects a prisoner to break back into prison.

Claud and Ivan with guns, supported by Sizemore, probably could dig back into the Mansion and get to the prisoners and free and arm them. That would lead to a stalemate fight, but they would only need a very short time to escape back into the tunnels. Sizemore hasn't used much juice, so he'd be able to get them under the bedrock and to safety, and a heavily armed GK force at the portal would keep them safe.

Or they could just escape to TV, since its portal wouldn't necessarily be guarded.

Would Janis still be willing to use Flower Power to defuse combat and help Wanda escape? Or at least, use it as a distraction as an underground escape is attempted? It might be enough to make a non-violent escape possible, and that would be worthwhile for her, if it avoided GK using a brute force combat assault to get their people back.

Will any of this happen? Things are very hard to predict in Erfworld.
Anyone else think the doctor in today's Penny Arcade looks familiar? Probably just a coincidence...
totalnerduk wrote:
[Thatcher] was also one of the people responsible for developing soft-serve ice cream, spreadable butter, [...]

Had to do something with all that milk I suppose. ;-)
Lipkin wrote:
JadedDragoon wrote:
...snip...

Conclusion
All, and I mean ALL, of Ossomer's internal conflict leading up to him turning centers around pride, fairness, honor, and nobility. Almost every update he is in after being uncroaked talks about fairness, honor, or nobility. In fact, starting with the first update I linked to I ended up linking to every single update that followed with Ossamer in it... because they all support my argument. None of it centers on loyalty.

So no. I don't get how you can have a strong opinion that he turned back out of loyalty other than you just having simply misread or misremembered the details of these updates. None of them talk about how much he wants to be with his family. How much he misses them. How much he fears for Jetstone or the city of Spacerock. In fact, he even works on tactics for how to take Spacerock. All of them deal with his being conflicted over the tactics of his new side. That he turned back out of loyalty is not a reasonable conclusion to all that. Not even a little.

None of the things you list preclude Ossomer turning out of loyalty to Jetstone and a feeling of not belonging in Gobwin Knob, they only give reasons for the loyalty.


None of the things I pointed out preclude that the great minds were mind controlling him either. But it would be irrational to jump to that conclusion... just like it's irrational to jump to the conclusion that he turned back out of loyalty. And no, none of what I described supports your loyalty claim. The arguments I've made do not give reasons for loyalty. They might if the updates I linked to made some connection between them and loyalty... but they don't. The focus throughout Ossamer's re-turn remains entirely on honor and honorable behavior. It's very clear that to Ossamer honor is not a means to an end (to loyalty)... it is the end itself.
I'm certain that someone else would have brought this up before, but it just hit me.
Benjamin started off on a royalist side, which is now ruled by a non-royal.
I know signamancy isn't EXACT but it looks like opposing monarchs would be his thing...