Book 3 - Page 222

It's not nice to fool Mother Nature

Book 3 - Page 222
Comic - Book 3 - Page 222
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Dirk Diggery wrote:
It's been shown that the Tools and other artifacts can be resized. If Parson were able to attune, it's possible the shoes would just appear to be like Air Jordan's or something.


I disagree. Look at the 'shoes on Judy's feet. Ref: https://wiki.erfworld.com/IPTSF_Text_61

The Arkenshoes, no matter what size they are made, will not look any different than they do there, albeit smaller or larger. I'm basing this on the fact that the other Arkentools we've seen have a very consistent appearance, regardless of current size. They scale, evenly, up and down.

My inner metagamer just had some Parson-esque ideas of the fun that could be had by changing the size of a 'tool to something ridiculously large briefly. If you can still wield it, weight-wise, awesome, you have crazy range with it. If you can't, well, set the Arkenpliers up and lean them on their handles towards someone's city, tip them over, and have them grow to...something like a skyscraper...as they fall. :parson::D

Push them, tiny, into a lock, then grow them. Lots of fun metagaming to be done with something you can resize at will. I wonder how durable they are...far more than they appear to be, otherwise the Arkenhammer's plastic toy ends would be in less-than-stellar condition by now. Or that whole heal/repair at start of turn mechanic covering the damage.
Yshl wrote:
My inner metagamer just had some Parson-esque ideas of the fun that could be had by changing the size of a 'tool to something ridiculously large briefly. If you can still wield it, weight-wise, awesome, you have crazy range with it. If you can't, well, set the Arkenpliers up and lean them on their handles towards someone's city, tip them over, and have them grow to...something like a skyscraper...as they fall. :parson::D

Well it took Charlie all day to shrink the the 'dish off the tower so they could move it into Storybro. Charlie's a cripple, so that would've slowed it down, but it definitely doesn't seem like resizing is instantaneous.
Ozamataz Buckshank wrote:
Yshl wrote:
My inner metagamer just had some Parson-esque ideas of the fun that could be had by changing the size of a 'tool to something ridiculously large briefly. If you can still wield it, weight-wise, awesome, you have crazy range with it. If you can't, well, set the Arkenpliers up and lean them on their handles towards someone's city, tip them over, and have them grow to...something like a skyscraper...as they fall. :parson::D

Well it took Charlie all day to shrink the the 'dish off the tower so they could move it into Storybro. Charlie's a cripple, so that would've slowed it down, but it definitely doesn't seem like resizing is instantaneous.


Good catch. Reference to what you're talking about: http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/150 - "Resizing the 'dish alone took him five trips up and back"

So, yeah, definitely not instantaneous. Still might be able to use the 'pliers to break things just by resizing them though.

As for the 'dish, boy, that thing is massive. His forearm is about the size of the feedhorn and it's been adjusted to fit in Storybro while maximizing size (presumably even larger when it's up on the tower). Yikes. I was always picturing a Dish or DirecTV sized 'dish. I guess not.

Hm. If one of the Arkenshoes were resized enough, could an old woman with a lot of children live in it? ;)
Lipkin wrote:
Saying the Hammer is the most powerful tool because it doesn't need anything additional is like saying a sword is more powerful than a gun because it doesn't need to be loaded.
ManaCaster wrote:
It's the strongest combat tool. It makes a single unit a powerful warrior. The Arkenpliers and Arkendish magnify the entire side. They provide intel and actual infrastructure.
Carl wrote:
Simply put the person who will win a war isn't the person with the most powerful individuals. it's the person with the biggest bestest logistics and intel networks.
As I've said repeatedly, I was responding to a very specific argument. I'm only going to restate that, in the hopes people will stop getting triggered into nitpicking and attacking an argument I never made about the Hammer being the most beneficial to a side.

People were complaining the 'Hammer seems like the weakest tool, because they were comparing it to the 'Pliers in an ideal scenario and the 'Dish in an ideal scenario. Some were saying they hoped the 'Hammer turned out to have more powers. I was trying to get across that if you took 4 equal units and gave each one Arkentool and made them fight, the one with the 'Hammer wins immediately. Hence why I called it the "strongest."

When you start coming up with tangential meanings of "strong" to respond to, you're looking for a more nuanced point than I was making to disagree with.
The Unlurked wrote:
As I've said repeatedly, I was responding to a very specific argument. I'm only going to restate that, in the hopes people will stop getting triggered into nitpicking and attacking an argument I never made about the Hammer being the most beneficial to a side.

People were complaining the 'Hammer seems like the weakest tool, because they were comparing it to the 'Pliers in an ideal scenario and the 'Dish in an ideal scenario. Some were saying they hoped the 'Hammer turned out to have more powers. I was trying to get across that if you took 4 equal units and gave each one Arkentool and made them fight, the one with the 'Hammer wins immediately. Hence why I called it the "strongest."

When you start coming up with tangential meanings of "strong" to respond to, you're looking for a more nuanced point than I was making to disagree with.
If you give the four Arkentools to four equal units without any support for any of them, then you are again in a very specific situation. In fact, given that Erfworld is a strategy game, not an RPG/Adventure/Ego-Shooter, it's an incredibly unlikely situation that runs very much against the core of the game.
I mean, if the Arkenwielders have to run a race, the Arkenshoe-wielder wins. Does that mean the Arkenshoes are the most powerful Arkentool?
Lipkin wrote:
Saying the Hammer is the most powerful tool because it doesn't need anything additional is like saying a sword is more powerful than a gun because it doesn't need to be loaded.
As anyone knows, the pen is mightier than the sword, if the pen is very sharp and the sword is very short.
Lord Dominator wrote:
If you give the four Arkentools to four equal units without any support for any of them, then you are again in a very specific situation.
No, you're in a scenario where you're not adding caveats to make one tool stronger than the other. I only made it in the futile hope of someone understanding what I was arguing against, instead of having a knee-jerk reaction and making up scenarios to contradict a point I wasn't making.

I'm done with this. You all can nitpick and disprove your strawman arguments without me, considering you weren't paying attention to my responses in the first place.
You're arguing on the basis of a unit vs. unit scenario, but Erfworld isn't a unit vs. unit game. It's side vs. side. Ignoring the impact of the side means you're arguing on the basis of an entirely different system, which holds no weight for the Erfworld setting.
And you're ignoring the time it takes to set up a tool. True, if an already strong side gets the 'Dish, they can set it up and take care and figure out all the uses of it. But if you're not? You could use it like a free caster for your side, without upkeep. If you're a small weak side, then renting it to other sides like Charly does means bam, witch sisters come to take it as soon as they hear about your services. If you are weak and you get the 'Hammer, you have a fighting chance at least. The weaker you are, the bigger a difference the 'Hammer makes. OTOH, the stronger you are, the more the 'Dish has to multiply. Yet it took Charlie hundreds of turns to figure out how to hurt someone with pop up thinkagram requests.

Also, sure, Erfworld is a strategy game with huge armies, but it is also a game of side ending decapitation strikes. The Hammer would protect you from an assassin with the 'Shoes sneaking in far more than the 'Dish did the last witch sister, or Lilith. The 'Shoes are the best at decapitation strikes, sure, but the 'Hammer would be great too, or in a pinch a prisoner in the capital whose string connecting her to the captor has been cut, who also gets an awesome ranged crit weapon. I haven't seen the 'Dish grant any advantages on decapitation strikes. It must surely be the weakest weapon. : P Mont'ka for ever!

As for the 'Pliers, Wanda has been using Croakamancy tactics all her life, and has just been using the same tactics. She's as guilty of Stanley of not leaving her comfort zone to find new uses.
Quote:
It's not nice to fool Mother Nature


A luscious bitch she is true.

And a Red Hot Momma.
Yshl wrote:
Lipkin wrote:
I wonder how the learning curve differs for the different tools. Wanda apparently knew immediately that she could Decrypt, but hasn't seemed to learn or be interested in learning any other abilities. The Dish is apparently capable of a great many things, but some require a shocked connection and/or the dish at full size. The Hammer can do many apparently disparate things, but Stanley is still figuring them out. The Shoes apparently took several turns to attune to Judy, and even then she only listed two abilities.

How many of the abilities were instantly intuited, and how many were discovered through experimentation? And how many may yet be discovered?


Do we even know that the Arkentools are supposed to be in the game? I get the feeling they are in place accidentally, stuff the Titans used to create the world but didn't intend to be a part of the world. That they appear to be 3-D rendered objects in a cartoon world adds to that vibe, substantially.

If you accept that they aren't even really supposed to be in-game items, but are instead various dev (developer) tools, then some of what they do may be related to their initial purpose, but more accident or happenstance on how they're impacting the game from within it.

I like your avatar, Lipkin, and you're a generally pleasant forum dweller, so I'll run down your rabbit hole a bit instead of continuing into mine.


I kind of want to start a thread specific to discussing the Arkentools, maybe even compiling references to support what we know about them, otherwise this is going to get buried and left as soon as the next update is posted. Does that already exist and I'm just not finding it? You can see the sort of thought experiments I'd like to have in that thread below.


The usability/learning curve has been demonstrated to be different for different units/unit types. We've got Wanda's near-instant Attunement to the 'pliers (ref:http://archives.erfworld.com/Book_1/155) vs Judy Gale taking "several turns" (ref:https://wiki.erfworld.com/IPTSF_Text_66). Also the Jetstone princes being unable to attune the 'pliers as well as Sylvia handling them and not becoming Attuned. (ref:http://archives.erfworld.com/Book_2/97)

One theory I have is that the closer a Unit is to the particular discipline a given Arkentool favors, the quicker the Unit will attune to it and the stronger it will be in the Unit's hands. Wanda as a Croakamancer and the 'pliers affinity for that discipline made for a very efficient Attunement and makes them quite powerful in her hands. In Ansom's hands, OTOH, they were particular good at melee attacks against the Uncroaked (again, showing some strong alignment or strengths in Croakamancy).


As for who can Attune and cannot Attune...the Arkenshoes give us as much information as the Arkenpliers do. The first Unit we know to have had them was Bell, Overlady of Easteros and, notably, a Caster (ref:https://wiki.erfworld.com/IPTSF_Text_66). Judy Gale took the Arkenshoes and Attuned to them (same ref). I don't believe we have any information pertaining to Judy being a Caster. Stanley is most definitely not a Caster.

Proposed statement of Erfact: One need not be a Caster to Attune an Arkentool.


Fun doing philosophy on the imaginary. Thanks Balder! :)


Well two thoughts:

1) I'm not even sure what Erf is for. If it's a game that makes the Titans cruel assholes, dunnit? Which I guess isn't news to Parson, but probably wouldn't sit well with the in-world religious types.

2) Erf having emergent properties has been a recurring thing. Superficially it looks like a game, but something that might look like a game menu like so:

> Fight
> Magic
> Run
> Item

is a lot more complicated than it actually is at first glance.

Most rulers just look at Thinkamancy as "discrete capabilities." Things which have existences into themselves. So they just think a caster goes:
"Magic > Suggestion (costs 10 Juice)"
or
"Magic > Thinkagram (costs 15 Juice)"

When the reality is that the Thinkamancer is actually rewiring Strings and how they rewire them is what distinguishes one "spell" from another. Spells aren't discrete things into themselves, anymore than running and walking are separate things.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if you told me that Arkentools have a learning curve and were actually devices intended for some entirely different purpose. People are literally using pliers like a sword or a club instead of like pliers.