Book 3 - Page 221

Stiff upper lip

Book 3 - Page 221
Comic - Book 3 - Page 221
Recent posts... (See full thread)
salmonstudies wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:
salmonstudies wrote:
Very fun update. The one thing that puzzles me, though: if Jannis believes that the Decrypted will all be destroyed when Wanda croaks, what good would it do to Decrypt Marie?

No one actually knows what Decrypted really are, even Wanda couldn't answer that question. Maybe they will dust, maybe they will disband, maybe they will simply stop loving Wanda. Who knows? It's worth a shot.


I agree with this, but it seems like Jannis is expecting the Decrypted to end with Wanda, so it's her motivations that interest me. Does she think the Hippies have some way to protect Marie, for example?


My apologies if this has been answered, but I'm probably not going to read through another ~30 pages to find out before responding.

I assume that in guessing Janis' expectations, you are referring to this line:

"She hadn't planned for very much beyond the part about telling Wanda that she and her Decrypted would never see another Sunrise."

My understanding was that this sentence does not refer to all of the decrypted that Wanda has raised with the Arkenpliers, but rather just to the specific few decrypted that were captured with Wanda at Portal Park. I believe the implication is that they will all be put to death as a result of the MK's judgement, not that all decrypted everywhere will dust once Wanda is croaked. So no, Janis does not expect all decrypted to dust with Wanda's execution, and so there is nothing contradictory about her desire to have Marie decrypted first.
Well, my react is probably going to get lost in 34 pages, but what the hey.

I don't see Janis' actions as a betrayal of Wanda. They aren't on the same side. They were at best neutral to each other. They may have liked each other personally, as Wanda and Jillian did in book 1, but that doesn't impact their actions. They're both acting for the good of their respective sides.

Janis is , to my mind, one of the kindest and most decent people in Erfworld, and the person I liked the most. That said, she had just told Wanda that there was no hope for a peaceful solution -- rather, Wanda was guaranteed death in a farce of a trial. Not just her, but as many decrypted as the council could lay their hands on as well, though Janis also appears to have had a plan to save decrypted Marie.

If the decrypted are not abominations but are individual sentient beings with at least the potential to become free -- as Ossamer did -- then Janis is a willing accomplice to genocide, however nice a person she is.

There's more to it than that. Wanda serves one thing, and one thing only: Fate.

And it is not her Fate to die here, not the fate of the decrypted to be destroyed, not Charlie's fate to be deprived of his Arkendish by an MK ruling declaring it "OP", not the fate of the world to be set back to status quo ante book 1. The world is fated to be remade fundamentally over the next few books.

And, as they say about fate, this can be done the easy way or the hard way. Janis, in agreeing to a corrupt deal which would cause an injustice at a farce of a trial, with people of whom Marie had specifically warned her that things would go sour, in becoming a willing participant in genocide, chose the hard way.

It's a great pity. She's as gentle a soul as anyone is in this comic, but I don't see how Wanda had a choice. Not if she wanted her fate on track, not if she wanted to save the decrypted, not if she wanted to save her side, not if she wanted to save herself.

And if there are any lingering bad feelings about Janis' death, remember that Janis intended to kill Wanda. This isn't an innocent person Wanda is facing. Janis fully intended to have Wanda's blood on her hands. Because she was conspiring with the great minds to murder Wanda under color of law, she forfeited any claims to the deontological protection of the innocent. Wanda simply moved up the time table, and did to Janis what Janis would have done unto her. If anything, Wanda's killing of her is a touch more merciful, because Janis will have a second chance at life. If the position were reversed, Wanda would get no such from Janis.

ETA: There is no way Janis isn't dead. Wanda is a combat veteran. I think she has one, and only one, chance at the moment and that is if Janis has absolutely no opportunity to react at all.

Besides -- we can all agree Wanda is ruthless and amoral. And from a ruthless perspective, living Janis offers no benefits decrypted Janis doesn't, and decrypted Janis will obey Wanda's commands absolutely.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
Whispri wrote:
Hero of Shadows wrote:
Your post seems to ignore every action GK has taken in the MK up until the fight itself, [snip perfectly valid points] but that does not mean that GK should not be prosecuted.

I'm not involved in law or law enforcement in any way so if anybody else on this forum is please correct my analogy but if there's a fight between two gangs and once the police arrives they can only arrest members from one gang, that the second gang gets off free does not mean that the first gang's members should be released.

Even if the police is typing the conflict so that the second gang wins, the first gang still needs to be prosecuted.

Those were Hamster's crimes - and Wanda wasn't on trial for them. And you forget that the barbarians were hostile towards Gobwin Knob long before any of that happened, they were outraged when Wanda bonded with the pliers. But never mind that, I think this update (and others prior) made it pretty clear that the barbarians break their own rules routinely and said rules are mostly for other people.

Yea, this. I obviously don't forget all the things Parson/GK did that peeved the MK off beforehand, but those aren't the things this trial is about, at least the pretense isn't about that.

The problem with your analogy is that the free casters in the MK aren't the police; they don't (or shouldn't) have any authority over whether sided casters -- who live in, work in, and affect the course of the "real" world -- live or die. The MK isn't a utopia, it doesn't have a higher moral authority, and it doesn't play in the geopolitical sphere of the rest of Erfworld. It's a utility drawer that sides can stick their hands in and shuffle around in if they feel like it. It's the sides that determine whether the barbarian casters of the MK live or die, not the other way around. This is like the vegetable peeler and apple corer got sick of one of your fingers and chopped off your arm.

(I may have strong opinions on the reach of the MK's power...)
iwinatlife wrote:
It has been Established that Guns are exempt from Flower Power. So she is gonna need more than Janis to get out of that Mansion.


Where was that established?
nargbop wrote:
iwinatlife wrote:
It has been Established that Guns are exempt from Flower Power. So she is gonna need more than Janis to get out of that Mansion.


Where was that established?


Image

It was less stated that they are exempt from flower power as that a flying bullet can't be stopped by flower power magic, which as we have seen in book zero doesn't so much stop people from attacking as make it impossible to connect. I think either bullets are too powerful to be stopped by such a simple spell, or they follow the same principles as 'falling objects'. Once they're released, they don't have any hostile intent that can be stopped. They are just physics. Like when Jillian pointed out the yellow dragon could just crap on the tree monster during her fight with Olive.

Keep in mind the 'peacebinding' spell Janis planned to do with the Minds did not function like basic flower power and just block attacks from landing, it would have prevented attacks in the first place, thus negating the risk of bullets.

Image
Anomynous 167 wrote:
thosta wrote:
Most sides are scarce in casters. I mean, Jetstone had what, four casters at their peak? Unaroyal two and TV only three? There is not many places on Erf that Thinkamancers can really do their thing.

Unaroyal had 3.

Unaroyal had four: Vanna, Jojo, and two we haven't met named Bowie and Spenser.
lordfisch wrote:
Whispri wrote:
Hero of Shadows wrote:
Your post seems to ignore every action GK has taken in the MK up until the fight itself, [snip perfectly valid points] but that does not mean that GK should not be prosecuted.

I'm not involved in law or law enforcement in any way so if anybody else on this forum is please correct my analogy but if there's a fight between two gangs and once the police arrives they can only arrest members from one gang, that the second gang gets off free does not mean that the first gang's members should be released.

Even if the police is typing the conflict so that the second gang wins, the first gang still needs to be prosecuted.

Those were Hamster's crimes - and Wanda wasn't on trial for them. And you forget that the barbarians were hostile towards Gobwin Knob long before any of that happened, they were outraged when Wanda bonded with the pliers. But never mind that, I think this update (and others prior) made it pretty clear that the barbarians break their own rules routinely and said rules are mostly for other people.

Yea, this. I obviously don't forget all the things Parson/GK did that peeved the MK off beforehand, but those aren't the things this trial is about, at least the pretense isn't about that.

The problem with your analogy is that the free casters in the MK aren't the police; they don't (or shouldn't) have any authority over whether sided casters -- who live in, work in, and affect the course of the "real" world -- live or die. The MK isn't a utopia, it doesn't have a higher moral authority, and it doesn't play in the geopolitical sphere of the rest of Erfworld. It's a utility drawer that sides can stick their hands in and shuffle around in if they feel like it. It's the sides that determine whether the barbarian casters of the MK live or die, not the other way around. This is like the vegetable peeler and apple corer got sick of one of your fingers and chopped off your arm.

(I may have strong opinions on the reach of the MK's power...)


Government in Erfworld isn't quite like our real world, because individuals have both direct controlling power over others by orders and contracts, and by the absolute individual power of abilities. Especially casters.

The MK is a meritocracy, sort of like the Bat Pack in TV. Quorums of the Qualified make all key decisions for the MK. They are the law, just as rulers and chiefs are the law for sides. The TV mafia analogy is very strong here. Only those actually "made" by merit have any authority in the MK. Each Class of magic has its own council, but they work together by mutual recognition of Qualified status.

It seems to me that the barbarian residents of the MK are first and foremost interested in what happens in the MK. To keep its residents safe, and enforce the unwritten law of traditional peace between all in the MK.

GK and Charlie violated that peace. The trial of Wanda gives the MK leaders the authority to lock both sides out, and restore peace and order to their kingdom. From their POV, they are doing the right and necessary thing. No "real world" side has any authority or power over the MK.

Not yet, anyway. GK threatens to bring war to the MK itself. War isn't about what is legal or even just. It all comes down to who holds the real balance of power to act.

Wanda's escape would definitely ruin the outcome of the trial, if she gets away and can retain and expand a sided force within the MK. With Parson's help, who knows what she could do?
Whispri wrote:
[
Anomynous 167 wrote:
You seem to be contradicting yourself. You say that GK didn't sell parson to pay a debt, they you say that GK does. Parson, as Chief Warlord, pawned himself to payoff his debt to Charlie. Ergo, Gobwin Knob sold Parson to Charlie to pay off a debt. What's not to get?

As for this "Duty to his friends" bulloney, does Parson have any friends outside of the folk in Gobwin Knob?

By that line of reasoning, Gobwin Knob gave the pliers to Janis and Sizemore had nothing to do with it.

You mean aside from his gamer buddies? Caesar perhaps. Maybe Janis(awkward).

Sizemore had nothing to do with what?

Eh, Caesar doesn't really count. He didn't become Parson's friend until after he turned to Charlescom... It just occured to me that Parson is an agent of Charlie. Watch out Caesar! He's just trying to render useless all of Transilvito's casters. Bunny is dead, and Bill and Vanna are locked away in the dungeon.
Ozamataz Buckshank wrote:
Anomynous 167 wrote:
thosta wrote:
Most sides are scarce in casters. I mean, Jetstone had what, four casters at their peak? Unaroyal two and TV only three? There is not many places on Erf that Thinkamancers can really do their thing.

Unaroyal had 3.

Unaroyal had four: Vanna, Jojo, and two we haven't met named Bowie and Spenser.

Knew about Bowie. Never hoid of Spenser.
Whispri wrote:
Bonnie and Artemis both seemed to think Wanda needed a line of sight to decrypt the fallen, Bonnie died trying to drag a body into cover, while Artemis ordered bodies dragged into Wanda's line of sight. They could have been mistaken I suppose, but she's done nothing to prove otherwise. Then again, it could have been a situational problem, that she couldn't mass decrypt without hitting everything in the magick kingdom (which could have lead to some discoveries) and didn't want to risk provoking the barbarians.


They thought it would be beneficial for her to have line of sight, for unspecified reasons. I'd place my Q's on that Mass Decrypt can't be easily targeted, so would hit everything, even if you don't want to hit it right then. Also, having things in line of sight so you have the right info lets you, in gaming parlance, hold your action for the opportune moment...like say, raising a corpse right when a high level unit comes within range of it. Not so sure that'd be easy if you didn't have line of sight.
LoS lets Wanda use her abilities more effectively, even if it's unrelated to the casting itself. It allows more tactical use of her abilities.

Anomynous 167 wrote:
Knew about Bowie. Never hoid of Spenser.


They're listed out in Bea's letter. He's a Findamancer.
wih wrote:

They're listed out in Bea's letter. He's a Findamancer.


How did I not catch Spenser's stupidworld signamancy until today, with the number of times the two as-yet unseen casters from Unaroyal come up in here?