Book 3 - Page 213

Rifling through his things

Book 3 - Page 213
Comic - Book 3 - Page 213
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magusjuniperb wrote:
I agree with your 50-50 odds. Just a couple of additional thoughts:

-She might not remember any dealings with Charlie from Book 0 because of the mind-wipe. She might not until she's croaked. Definitely doesn't hinder her realizing fishy things going on *now*, though.
-Though she and Stanley hate each other, I get the impression she doesn't know about Wanda's involvement in Faq's fall. Stanley might be the one to tell her, or at least Jack? I don't know.
To be clear (that was something of a long, rambling post) I don't think that Jillian has all the pieces right now to put together a solid case against Charlie. Helping along will probably be needed from relatively trusted sources like Jack, Wanda, and Ansom.
*I know that a lot of Book 0's dealings with Charlie are a mystery to Jillian but talking to Jack might clear things up. Her subsequent headaches certainly might be a clue that something's awry, anyways :). And, while I don't think anyone knows the details about the Charlie-Betsy mind surgery on Jillian at the end of Book 0 didn't Jack note that her personality underwent a significant change after that?
*Stanley or Wanda would have to tell her about Wanda's role in the fall of Faq, yeah. Maybe a decrypted Marie could put together the pieces, knowing about the prophecies that motivated Wanda? The latter's a long shot, admittedly.

ManaCaster wrote:
DukeofTuring wrote:

And what is Jillian doing right now, beyond literally sacking and renaming the city of Gobwin Knob? She's being used by Charlie, so thoroughly and obviously that even she's realized something terribly bizarre is going on.

She appears to be smiling in that last panel, and she thinks she owes Charlie her life, so she's probably OK with it for now.
Jillian enjoys conflict and got a headache when she was trying to figure out Charlie's position prior to the battle, so... maybe she's looking forward to calling Charlie out on his scheming? Maybe she's just generally happy about the razing and renaming? I see your point in that she does look pretty contented, but her inner dialogue suggests that she's not entirely happy with the status quo.

RE owing Charlie her life, are you referring to the Non-Agression Pact or the rifle delivery prior to the sack of the city of GK?
DukeofTuring wrote:

RE owing Charlie her life, are you referring to the Non-Agression Pact or the rifle delivery prior to the sack of the city of GK?
That, of course, was the worst part of all of this; it was Charlie who had saved her from Ansom, from Stanley. She was even with Ansom, who'd truly been lost at the battle for Gobwin Knob. She understood that, finally. But now she owed Charlie. She would have to save him someday, to be even.
Mmh, point noted. At least she's frustrated with the idea of "owing" Charlie, that's still in keeping with my original train of thought. Maybe upcoming revelations will change or reverse Jillian's view?

There are worse bets than putting your money on inconsistency from Jillian, anyways :)
Anomynous 167 wrote:
Ogar the Dwarf wrote:

There's one fact that can be learned from this event, however: Charlie is able to circumvent a truce, even if we may not know the exact means and limitations of this. Corollary: The non-aggression part of Don's pact with Charlie isn't worth ten Shmuckers.

The non-aggression pact is worth plenty. Charlie has guarenteed Faq's destruction should Jillian attack Transilvito.

Charlie couldn't use Jillian against TV in the same manner anyway because she lacks the inclination to attack TV on her own. But TV has many enemies right now. For a start, Charlie might bolster Carpool's army by arranging that they find a valuable gem under a tree.
ManaCaster wrote:
Sir Dr D wrote:
I don't really beleive someone can carny themsleves though. It is like someone falling for their own scam, Jack being fooled by his own illusions, or someone being 'cured' by a placebo pill when they know it is a placebo.

Quite the contrary, normal people delude themselves all the time without quite realizing.

Carnymancers can do it consciously.

I finally realized why Charlie's "real" appearance bothers me so much. It's his chair.

It's like an evil confluence of Professor X's hoverchair and a Dalek.

Charlie is Davros. Eternally on "life support."
Anomynous 167 wrote:

[*]Comedy is all about timing. If anyone besides had made any observation on Jillian's knowledge of the word "foilage" before me, then what I had just said wouldn't be funny. It would be too late to make that attempt of observational/sarcastic humor. Which is why I had to make that remark almost as soon as possible.

Except that 1) others in this thread had in fact already discussed Jillian's understanding of "foliage", and 2) it really wasn't funny, rather it came off as just more bitterness against the character.

Anomynous 167 wrote:

Ansom doesn't know about Bonnie. Bonnie turned up in Gobwin Knob back when Ansom was in Tremenis' closet.

Technically, Trammenis was in Ansom's closet, or more accurately, the closet in the quarters Ansom was assigned during his visit. You could also argue that Trammenis was in Trammenis' closet, as he owned the entire city. To our knowledge as readers, Ansom has never been in the closet (in any interpretation of that phrase).

Anomynous 167 wrote:
MerchLis wrote:
Anomynous 167 wrote:
Isn't it mighty suspicious that Jillian just happens to find the guns, despite not knowing the meaning of the word foilage?

Is there any reason to suspect Jillian doesn't know the meaning of the world "foliage"?

For one, I can't even spell the word.

Your personal intelligence/education/knowledge is probably not the most accurate measure of comparison to determine the same characteristics of a fictional character in a fictional world. Do you have any other reason?
Ogar the Dwarf wrote:
OneHugeTuck wrote:


This is a mixture of part I.a and I.b of the contract. The words "directly or indirectly" can only be found in part I.b:


GK shall not cause bodily harm to, or destruction of, JILLIAN, by any means, directly or indirectly.

It probably means that harming Jillian by croaking her megalogwiff would constitue a breach of the truce. The part relevant to CC supporting an attack on GK is part I.a:


Neither Party shall attempt to cause, either directly or through agents or other contracted parties, [...]

This is worded as if agents are a special kind of contracted party, thus no contract = no agent. Furthermore, the "Party" (i.e. CC) must make an attempt through the agent. Therefore I would conclude, with a bit of hesitation, that as long as Jillian is not obliged to attack GK on behalf of CC, her attacks don't trigger a default of the truce. I'm not sure about unrelated contracts, like old NDAs (Charlie seems to sign a lot of them). I guess that they don't make someone an agent of Charlie, or just about everybody in Erfworld could be one by now.

I think you are reading that incorrectly. I don't think it means "agents or contracted parties other than agents," but rather "agents or contracted parties other than the Parties of this particular contract, as referenced at the beginning of this sentence ("Neither Party shall...")."

Therefore, it does not seem to be unreasonable to think that a unit or side could work as either a CC or GK "agent" even in the absence of any contract or other documentation of such an arrangement.
Nightseraph wrote:
Anomynous 167 wrote:
Nightseraph wrote:

To pick a nit, Lilith is not a commander. She doesn't have duty.

All units have Duty. Duty just affects Commanders more than non commanders, and chiefs and Rulers are affected even more. Basically, the higher up you are, the more you have to follow Duty.
Again, I refer to Page 110 which specifically says that Lilith has a sense of Duty.

Even Courtiers have Duty. Remember how Lord Crush concidered writing a book on "philosophical exploration of the role of Duty in non-command units"

Direct contradictions are annoying. Does Charlie tell his Archons they have Duty, when they don't, to create Placebo duty? Was Sizemore wrong about what he told Parson? Is Crush just pulling evidence out of thin air to support what he saw?

Units just have duty.
I don't see the distinction between commanders and non-commanders. It just seems different because of the nature of their position. Maybe there's some magical twiddly bits involved that strengthens some magical compulsion over them, but eh. That seems unnecessarily complicated when it's simpler to say that commanders have wider latitude to act on their sense of duty. The average footslogger doesn't need to think about much more than to do as ordered.

Logically commanders should be able to theoretically betray their side.
People would just say that's low Loyalty, but eh, that just sounds like a fancy way of saying that they're under no compulsion to be bound by duty if they don't feel like it.

Personally, unless given evidence to believe otherwise, there is no fucking reason to believe any given Erfer's testimony about Capitalized Metaphysical Shit. Being insensibly backwards and superstitious people, they tend to treat these things as real forces unto themselves instead of as emergent properties with underlying causes or as abstract concepts. Unless there is merit to doing so, I rarely refer directly to Capitalized Metaphysical Bullshit because most of the time it obscures language instead of clarifying anything.

I sure as fuck don't like the baggage attached to "Signamancy" when "appearances" works better nine-times-in-ten. Because I sure as hell don't want to get into a physical debate about contract magic, compulsions or pattern recognition hacks. Suddenly just because Signamancers are a thing, every Erfer feels justified in behaving like phrenologists without any good justification. (Stanley and Slately are both guilty of having judged books by their covers.)

Let me emphasize. They are assbackwards in their thinking.
(Still playing catchup, currently 5 pages in)

With regard to OOTS and the giants in the pass, consider the difference in a single, high level flier, on a maneuverable carpet, versus a large airship that uses propellers to drive through the air, up high where the air is thin and the acceleration is low.

Yes, Ansom had an easier time maneuvering, dodging, staying out of range, etc. The OOTS airship may be at or near it's height limit, and just not able to get higher, or attempting to go higher would make an even slower speed (less air for the screws/propellers to bite into)

But ultimately, there is one other crucial difference. Ansom arrives at the speed of his movement in hexes per turn. The Mechanae arrives at the speed of plot. And we know that there has to be a wandering monster encounter on each trip, that was established in their first book. And that's not even a random encounter, that's the plot attempt by the people wanting to destroy the world to destroy the ship that has the world savers on it. So speed of plot requires the ship to be attacked, and now the party is split, dramatic scene, ...

In ErfWorld, it would be like Parson attempting to fly a ship of people going to the big battle to end the need for Erfworld to have battles, only to be fought by the giant carny forces that want the battles to continue. Maybe just as simple as trying to walk from A to B through a hidden pass, only to find that he's intercepted and can't walk.

Or, to somehow find that what should have been an easy move from A to B being interrupted with a forced combat, with the party split in half, unable to support each other -- but that would require something to break the rules, right? Marching a column from A to B just isn't difficult, right?

(KingWorld is a real game-breaking spell; can you imagine how much Charlie could have made by selling individual castings of that?)
Infidel wrote:
Surfal wrote:
'That trick the Eastern Giants do'... shouldn't that be Western?

And nice dig at OOTS at the end of the section :)

Edit 2: Ninja'd on my Edit 1. Damn you tigerusthegreat!

Yea, I read that and couldn't help but think it was a reference to OOTS.

Definitely a coincidence that both these events are happening in the comics at the same time.