Book 3 - Page 201

The pity of heroes

Book 3 - Page 201
Comic - Book 3 - Page 201
Recent posts... (See full thread)
Dear JadedDragoon, I am sorry to have frustrated you. From our exchanges, I can see how you would think that I was ascribing certain arguments and positions to you and then attacking you for them. Ironically, that isn't in fact true, but I can see how you'd come to that conclusion -- considering that I included your quotes in my post -- and so I take responsibility for the confusion. (Especially when I wrote "here we are", which is hella vague.)

FWIW, I was in fact aware that you doubted that Jillian would count as an agent of CC if she attacks GK without his knowledge. And I am cognizant of the difference between what is possible and what is likely. FWIW, if I include someone's quote in a post and add my own thoughts, it does not necessarily mean that I am arguing with (or even talking to) that person only or even primarily. I am sometimes just using that post as an anchor for discussion. But I'll try to be more careful of how my responses can be interpreted from here on.

And personally -- generally speaking -- I know that a lot of interpretations are "possible". Sometimes though it's frustrating to read a whole bunch of hooey about some "possible" interpretations that, if I may be so bold to say, I frankly find to be dumb (not any of yours here though!), and especially when it seems that Rob is clearly pointing us in a different direction (maybe not in this case though) or when I don't think Rob would write such a thing (again not here).

And so I replied because even though I know you said that these are only POSSIBLE things and not LIKELY things, well I find some of them to be so unlikely that it's frustrating to me to think that anyone could find them likely. And so somebody is maybe wrong on the internet and so duty calls! :lol: But probably I should hold my tongue next time.

So, now we that we both acknowledge that we agree on many things, let us now fight over that which we disagree! :lol:

JadedDragoon wrote:

The consensus, which I agree with, is that "agent" includes whatever Charlie intended it to include. If he intended it to include sovereign sides that are allied to him then it includes sovereign sides that are allied to him. If he intended that it only include those units acting on his instructions or behalf... then it only includes those units acting on his instructions or behalf. If he intended it to include that squirrel over there and this bush of raspberries then guess what?

Personally, I don't think I agree with that consensus, despite the prominent language in the contract. Perhaps it's just my bias as a linguist, but I just don't think the meaning of words can be bent so much. It'd be chaos! Like cats and dogs living together!

Quote:
You're doing an awful lot of preaching to the choir there.

So, for the record, yeah I knew you agree. You weren't who I was preaching to.

JadedDragoon wrote:
Lingo wrote:
JadedDragoon wrote:
I personally doubt Jillian will count as an agent of CC when Charlie doesn't have any idea what she's up to. But she could be considered a agent of CC at all times simply because she is known to do Charlie's bidding. Since the contract takes intent into account it will all depend on what Charlie intended by the phrase "agents of CC." Afaik that's the only consensus that has been reached the last half dozen times it's come up.

(stuff Lingo snipped out here)

Which further underscores that she was a spy for Charlie and that, given that Vanna left FAQ before Jillian hatched her current plans, Charlie likely has no idea what FAQ is up to.


(Lingo's diatribe snipped here)


Now, whether or not he is aware of Jillians actions is completely separate discussion. Hence why it was marked as separate (which you snipped out) from my reply to your earlier comment. It was not part of my reply to you or any one else in fact but rather simply my own musings. And it has no bearing on whether or not I think Jillian counts as an agent of CC in her current endeavors. I prefer not to double post but if that's going to cause confusion I will simply have to moving forward... separating out each individual thought into a different comment even if it means triple or quadruple posting. For now I'll try putting section headings on each individual reply and subheadings for different subjects within a reply.

No, I wasn't confused. Those are just two points I chose to juxtapose because I wanted to discuss them jointly. I didn't mean to ascribe those two positions to you simultaneously but I can see why you'd think that, so sorry again.

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That said, you are wrong about the archons. Jillian is familiar with archons and with proper scouting practices. I'd go so far as to say she's a master of such, and would almost certainly have very high standards for her own units in that area. Point being, the likelihood of piercing a unit's veil is not low enough that a unit can remain in proximity to scouts indefinitely and expect to go unnoticed. Further, there is only so much information that can be gleaned from simply watching ants moving around below you.

I mostly agree. I was just imagining that an archon or two might at least keep tabs on FAQ's comings and goings. And I think an archon would notice an increase in the Giants' numbers.

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As for him predicting what Jillian might do, sure. He might assume she would attack Gobwin Knob (the side). But I imagine he expected her to attack Greenwashing and the like, as Don King suggested. Not Gobwin Knob (the city). If she takes GK it would take her out from under his thumb and I doubt he would be ok with that. Also Charlie knows how delicate the situation is in TV and that a march to attack GK (the city) would, initially, look like a march to attack TV (the city) since both are in the same direction from FAQ. So even if he did have archons watching he wouldn't be able to know if she was really planning to attack TV or not at this point... only that she wasn't attacking Greenwashing like Don King suggested to her.


I wonder what exactly you mean by the bolded part. I've seen that stated by others and I wonder where it comes from. From the map it appears that GK and TV are basically on opposite sides of FAQ. GK is ESE and TV is WSW. In fact GK city is due east, while TV city is mostly southwest if I remember the Book 1 epilogue correctly. So they're not really in the same direction. Unless you mean by "initially" you think there is literally only one airborne route out of FAQ (the eastern pass) and so she has to go a few hexes east on her first turn out? I don't think that's true either. I can think of at least two passages that people have interpreted that way but I don't think that's the likeliest interpretation.

(Also I have no idea where Greenwashing is. :oops: )

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If he still had Vanna bumping uglies with Duncan, on the other hand, he would probably know exactly what she was up to. Cause Duncan knows and Vanna has shown that she's very skilled at getting information out of leadership units when those units know they should keep their mouths shut.


On this we agree. Now let's drink our rum, strum our mandolins, and be mellow, cahuna. :jed:
Noobamancer wrote:
Oh, I just got a prediction of what Don could be doing here.

He get Parson to use the scroll and cash in on Charlies offer (most likely a 1-turn heir and the equivalent money GK would have paid for Parson&Co). He signs a contract with Parson ensuring that he will still ally with GK and commit to the fight against Charlie once Parson

...

No idea if this is what Don is actually planning, but I do think it's a fairly clever idea that would play right into his hands.


I still think Don is giving Parson a test, as the comic doesn't say he flat out rejected the offer, the question Don wants to see is what reason Parson will come up with. That way he'll know whether Parson will honor their alliance later on or not.

Aerouge wrote:
And on the Parson not going home debate. Why doesnt he simply answer that it would be impossible for him to read the scroll because his duty forbids it?


Because they have a turnamancer who could help him with the duty problem.


There's a third option I don't see people discussing. Don makes a deal with Charlie. Don then backstabs him (sort of) by spinning off a new side with Caesar or the new heir at the top and they take the prisoners so they can ally with GK and then they watch each other's backs, or some other complicated political move that Don would be shrewd enough to make.

Hell, Don might have been inspired by Slately to make one final gesture. Don signs the contract to help Charlie for as long as he lives, heir pops, Don breaks whatever contract then disbands himself leaving Caesar and the heir in charge.
BobBobson wrote:
There's a third option I don't see people discussing. Don makes a deal with Charlie. Don then backstabs him (sort of) by spinning off a new side with Caesar or the new heir at the top and they take the prisoners so they can ally with GK and then they watch each other's backs, or some other complicated political move that Don would be shrewd enough to make.


Where? A side without a capital is pretty much worthless, given they have no treasury.
Granted, I could imagine Jillian taking GK and Caesar taking FAQ and spinning off there, but that would need several more turns and the big SHTF moment should be sooner than that.
Lingo wrote:
Dear JadedDragoon, I am sorry to have frustrated you. From our exchanges, I can see how you would think that I was ascribing certain arguments and positions to you and then attacking you for them. Ironically, that isn't in fact true, but I can see how you'd come to that conclusion -- considering that I included your quotes in my post -- and so I take responsibility for the confusion. (Especially when I wrote "here we are", which is hella vague.)

...snip...


fair enough. :) For what it's worth I was more than a little snippy in my reply as well. Apologies for that.

My only addition here is that I tend to acknowledge the possible as a matter of course simply because it seems to me to be good habit. It's a guard against personal bias. The would-be scientist/engineer/philosopher in me almost demands that i acknowledge all remotely reasonable possibilities as a matter of thoroughness and completeness. My tendency toward methodical completeness also often makes me seem to be condescending. *shrug* C'est la vie.

For brevity, I will be doing a lot of snipping from here on.

Lingo wrote:
So, now we that we both acknowledge that we agree on many things, let us now fight over that which we disagree! :lol:

JadedDragoon wrote:

The consensus, which I agree with, is that "agent" includes whatever Charlie intended it to include. ...snip...

Personally, I don't think I agree with that consensus, despite the prominent language in the contract. Perhaps it's just my bias as a linguist, but I just don't think the meaning of words can be bent so much. It'd be chaos! Like cats and dogs living together!


Well, to be fair, the squirrel and the raspberry bush is probably taking it a bit far. However, I will point out that in the US legal system intent is, in fact, a major component in how legal documents and even laws are interpreted. We have an entire branch of our government dedicated to doing so. Of course, proving what the intent of the contract's signatories and writers was at the time of the signing is a difficult and often fruitless endeavor.

In Erfworld, on the other hand, the Rules of the world themselves make note of the intent by the author, make that intent knowable to all potential signatories, and then enforces the content of the contract in accordance with that intent. Which is pretty handy since no one can claim they meant something else or thought the others meant something else at a later date. Chances are you're right that they can't just go about using random words to mean completely unrelated things. Still, "agent" has at least two major interpretations in this context and both are possible and even plausible.

Interesting potential wrinkle there is that Parson may not be able to "see" the intent behind the contracts wording the way a native Erfworlder could.

Also, nice Ghostbusters reference.

Lingo wrote:
Quote:
You're doing an awful lot of preaching to the choir there.

So, for the record, yeah I knew you agree. You weren't who I was preaching to.


Apologies for misunderstanding then.

Lingo wrote:
JadedDragoon wrote:
...snip...

No, I wasn't confused. Those are just two points I chose to juxtapose because I wanted to discuss them jointly. I didn't mean to ascribe those two positions to you simultaneously but I can see why you'd think that, so sorry again.


Ah I see.

I was also rather... brusk... and perhaps a bit sarcastic... when I responded. I'm beginning to think I was in a bad mood when I wrote this.

Lingo wrote:
Quote:
That said, you are wrong about the archons. Jillian is familiar with archons and with proper scouting practices. I'd go so far as to say she's a master of such, and would almost certainly have very high standards for her own units in that area. Point being, the likelihood of piercing a unit's veil is not low enough that a unit can remain in proximity to scouts indefinitely and expect to go unnoticed. Further, there is only so much information that can be gleaned from simply watching ants moving around below you.

I mostly agree. I was just imagining that an archon or two might at least keep tabs on FAQ's comings and goings. And I think an archon would notice an increase in the Giants' numbers.


Perhaps, but we are also seeing Charlie's resources getting spread a bit thin here. Or at least, that's how it is starting to seem to me. I suspect he previously relied entirely on Vanna for his scouting as she would be very very capable of such. More than likely this would have already been overkill. Then a special circumstance popped up at random with a narrow window of opportunity attached and he moved Vanna into place to capitalize on it... at the expense of up-to-date info on the goings on in FAQ.

Like I said you could be right. If I were Charlie you would be right. But from a narative perspective I think him not knowing works better. It offers another setup for Charlie to get blindsided... and this is Hamsterdance vs The Charlie Foxtrot after all.

Lingo wrote:
Quote:
As for him predicting what Jillian might do, sure. He might assume she would attack Gobwin Knob (the side). But I imagine he expected her to attack Greenwashing and the like, as Don King suggested. Not Gobwin Knob (the city). If she takes GK it would take her out from under his thumb and I doubt he would be ok with that. Also Charlie knows how delicate the situation is in TV and that a march to attack GK (the city) would, initially, look like a march to attack TV (the city) since both are in the same direction from FAQ. So even if he did have archons watching he wouldn't be able to know if she was really planning to attack TV or not at this point... only that she wasn't attacking Greenwashing like Don King suggested to her.


I wonder what exactly you mean by the bolded part. I've seen that stated by others and I wonder where it comes from. From the map it appears that GK and TV are basically on opposite sides of FAQ. GK is ESE and TV is WSW. In fact GK city is due east, while TV city is mostly southwest if I remember the Book 1 epilogue correctly. So they're not really in the same direction. Unless you mean by "initially" you think there is literally only one airborne route out of FAQ (the eastern pass) and so she has to go a few hexes east on her first turn out? I don't think that's true either. I can think of at least two passages that people have interpreted that way but I don't think that's the likeliest interpretation.

(Also I have no idea where Greenwashing is. :oops: )


Hmm this map is interesting and seems, at first, to contradict what Parson has said. In the linked text update he talks about TV and GK (the actual cities) having mountains between them and saying "with the mountains between us, it's like we have our backs up against the same wall."

Obviously, there are other ways to interpret this but the most direct is that the two cities are literally on opposite slopes of the same mountain range. FAQ would then be positioned somewhere nearby, but given that FAQ is described as being near where TV's territory meets GK's it would logically be somewhere to one side of that same mountain chain, in the valley that previously made it a bubble kingdom.

The less likely interpretation, not counting the map, is that Parson was being purely figurative. However I submit that the map doesn't actually support that interpretation.

Forgive me for going into minute detail here, it's the scientist/engineer in me. I'm trying to cover all eventualities... I don't mean it to be condescending.

Here we have a clarified and adjusted map, that accuracy of which is not yet verified but is easier to work with and includes known and suspected city sites.

From this map we see that FAQ, Transilvito, and Gobwin Knob have a triangular grey space between them that is not attributed to any side. I submit that this is the mountain range in question. The map does not show a definite location for the city of Gobwin Knob but rather a suspected one. It also doesn't show even a suspected location for the city of Transilvito. But it does show a definite location for the capitol city of FAQ.

Even if we assume that the suspected location given for the city of GK is wrong it still has to be somewhere along that mountain range's east side. That much we know for sure. The location you mentioned (due east of FAQ) is more likely to be Uniroyal's former capitol site.

And based on aerial view of TV we know it occupies highly mountainous terrain as well... which combined with this map and Parson's comments suggest it to be along the west side of the same mountain chain. This would put the city of TV with its back against the same wall as the city of GK... at which point it remains consistent with a simple, literal interpretation of what Parson has said and the map you linked to at the same time.

Now, assuming Queen Jillian's forces leave from the known location of FAQ's capitol (which they did) then most direct route to reach the city of GK is through those mountains. Given that her force is composed of mountain capable giants and flight capable megalows, the mountains would pose little obstacle to her. She would have to travel through some of TV's territory to get there and, while doing so, would be traveling in the general direction of the western slops of the mountains... which is where we strongly suspect the city of TV to be located.

Even if she choose not to impose upon TV's hospitality and goes around the mountains (despite the large swath of GK territory she would then have to fight through to reach their capitol) she would still travel east along the southern border of FAQ until she reached the mountains... the border FAQ shares with TV... and, again, in the general direction of where we suspect the city of TV to be located.

So, for at least the first part of her march she would be traveling along a similar path to the one she might take if she intended to assault the city of TV instead of the city of GK.

This is what I meant. :-)

Lingo wrote:
Quote:
If he still had Vanna bumping uglies with Duncan, on the other hand, he would probably know exactly what she was up to. Cause Duncan knows and Vanna has shown that she's very skilled at getting information out of leadership units when those units know they should keep their mouths shut.


On this we agree. Now let's drink our rum, strum our mandolins, and be mellow, cahuna. :jed:


A rum and coke for me, if you'd kindly. 8-)
Jillian might have been on her way to GK but an abrupt alliance change by TV may make her change course.

I hope that the Tuesday update comes early on Tuesday. I'm looking forward to the backer stories resuming also. <3
JadedDragoon wrote:

My only comment there is that I tend to acknowledge the possible as a matter of course simply because it seems to me to be good habit. It's a guard against personal bias. The would-be scientist/engineer/philosopher in me almost demands that i acknowledge all remotely reasonable possibilities as a matter of thoroughness and completeness....


Yeah, I can be that way too. I will pedantically correct minute points in other people's posts even when I agree with their general point.

But it sure can be tiring to read when other people do it, right? ;)


JadedDragoon wrote:

Well, to be fair, the squirrel and the raspberry bush is probably taking it a bit far. However, I will point out that in the US legal system intent is, in fact, a major component in how legal documents and even laws are interpreted. We have an entire branch of our government dedicated to doing so. Of course, proving what the intent of the contract's signatories and writers was at the time of the signing is a difficult and often fruitless endeavor.

In Erfworld, on the other hand, the Rules of the world themselves make note of the intent by the author, make that intent knowable to all potential signatories, and then enforces the content of the contract in accordance with that intent. Which is pretty handy since no one can claim they meant something else or thought the others meant something else at a later date. Chances are you're right that they can't just go about using random words to mean completely unrelated things. Still, "agent" has at least two major interpretations in this context and both are possible and even plausible.

Interesting potential wrinkle there is that Parson may not be able to "see" the intent behind the contracts wording the way a native Erfworlder could.


Well, that's all true. I guess I should also add, I'd find it an unsatisfactory twist to the story if it hinged on something like that.

JadedDragoon wrote:

I was also rather... brusk... and perhaps a bit sarcastic... when I responded. I'm beginning to think I was in a bad mood when I wrote this.


No problem. I should probably refrain from posting at 3 in the morning. Ironically I replied to you (and SkySchemer) because I wanted to post something but I was actually trying to stop myself from replying snottily to someone else who was really chapping my hide.

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Lingo wrote:
I mostly agree. I was just imagining that an archon or two might at least keep tabs on FAQ's comings and goings. And I think an archon would notice an increase in the Giants' numbers.


Perhaps, but we are also seeing Charlie's resources getting spread a bit thin here. Or at least, that's how it is starting to seem to me. I suspect he previously relied entirely on Vanna for his scouting as she would be very very capable of such. More than likely this would have already been overkill. Then a special circumstance popped up at random with a narrow window of opportunity attached and he moved Vanna into place to capitalize on it... at the expense of up-to-date info on the goings on in FAQ.

Like I said you could be right. If I were Charlie you would be right. But from a narative perspective I think him not knowing works better. It offers another setup for Charlie to get blindsided... and this is Hamsterdance vs The Charlie Foxtrot after all.


That would be unsatisfactory to me. I guess I can't believe his resources would be stretched so thin and he'd be so careless. After all he knew exactly where Stanley was (with the Juggles) despite Stanley not telling anyone where he was going, so he seems to have a spy on him. Anyway we both agree Jillian is probably not going to cost Charlie money so I guess we don't need to continue this train of thought right? :geek:

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Hmm this map is interesting and seems, at first, to contradict what Parson has said. In the linked text update he talks about TV and GK (the actual cities) having mountains between them and saying "with the mountains between us, it's like we have our backs up against the same wall."

Obviously, there are other ways to interpret this but the most direct is that the two cities are literally on opposite slopes of the same mountain range. FAQ would then be positioned somewhere nearby, but given that FAQ is described as being near where TV's territory meets GK's it would logically be somewhere to one side of that same mountain chain, in the valley that previously made it a bubble kingdom.

The less likely interpretation, not counting the map, is that Parson was being purely figurative. However I submit that the map doesn't actually support that interpretation.

Forgive me for going into minute detail here, it's the scientist/engineer in me. I'm trying to cover all eventualities... (snip)


Well, I confess I haven't read kilantolshi's post yet, and I'm too tired at the moment to try to parse that and your post put together. Let me just say I had a different interpretation of that page with Parson's comment that was not entirely metaphorical but not so literal either. Basically I think the mountain range takes up a much bigger chunk of the map than I think you do. I imagine the mountain range to start more or less at the lake (bay?) and go right up to the top of the map, completely separating GK from TV, as well as CC from Jitterati. And the mountain range is at least as wide as FAQ, which used to be a tiny bubble in a hidden valley deep in the mountains. And so when Parson says they're up against the same wall, he doesn't mean their cities are right up against those mountains. It's just that before FAQ existed, the mountains were the only thing that separated them. Then Jillian restarted FAQ which puts her right smack in the middle. And so I can't think of anything preventing us from locating TV City much farther south and west, perhaps right in the middle of their territory even. In fact I think the Book 1 Epilogue describes it as a few turns southwest of the ruins of FAQ, though it's too late for me to go looking for that description. Anyway if you know of anything that would refute this interpretation, let me know.

Good night everybody! Sweet dreams of happy, dramatic updates!
Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but it seems to me that Parson is missing a trick here.

This whole scenario is predicated on the assumption that Parson can cast the scroll and "go home". But as we've already seen, Fate has decreed otherwise. Parson has already (more or less) convinced Benjamin and Caesar that Fate has certain plans for him and that attempting to oppose them (like, for example, holding back the bracer) is likely to result in dire unintended consequences. So as a first step, Parson ought to tell them (and, ideally, Don) about the last time he tried to cast the scroll, the double result from the bracer, and the "Hand of Fate" that prevented him from casting it. And he ought to ask Benjamin to ask the bracer whether casting it is even a possibility now.

Naturally I am gambling (as Parson would be) on the assumption that Fate isn't suddenly going to go "Yup, sure, cast away! Have a nice flight back to Ohio!", as it seems unlikely that Parson has somehow fulfilled his destiny between the Battle of Jetstone and now. And there's also the risk that Don King doesn't accept the story and the bracer result (although he's had proof of its power already). But if Benjamin and Caesar believe that Parson can't cast the scroll and, more importantly, if they believe that Don King forcing him to do so will result in Very Bad Things happening either to Don personally or to the side, they will be bound by Duty to convince him otherwise.

And if Parson can't cast the scroll (and Don accepts this fact), then the whole offer is moot. In fact, it would only strengthen Parson's case, since it will support the view that Parson is doing the will of the Titans in fighting Charlie. But if Don doesn't believe it, well...Benjamin and Caesar will be in a very awkward position indeed...
Gyrate wrote:
Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but it seems to me that Parson is missing a trick here.

This whole scenario is predicated on the assumption that Parson can cast the scroll and "go home". But as we've already seen, Fate has decreed otherwise. Parson has already (more or less) convinced Benjamin and Caesar that Fate has certain plans for him and that attempting to oppose them (like, for example, holding back the bracer) is likely to result in dire unintended consequences. So as a first step, Parson ought to tell them (and, ideally, Don) about the last time he tried to cast the scroll, the double result from the bracer, and the "Hand of Fate" that prevented him from casting it. And he ought to ask Benjamin to ask the bracer whether casting it is even a possibility now.


I'm not sure Parson fully remembers that. IRL when you get knocked out like that you often lose the five or so minutes that came before it. It's kinda like switching a game console or a computer off without saving your recent progress/work.

I don't recall Parson mentioning that or even thinking about it since it happened... so who knows.
This hadn't occurred to me until now ... why does it have to be Parson who casts the spell? Jojo was prepared to cast it on him, so we know Parson doesn't have to cast it himself, and Don has three casters. Don doesn't need Parson's cooperation at all. Further: Charlie knows this, and would have suggested it to him.

So ... does Don have doubts about this course of action? Does he have moral qualms? Is he testing Parson?
J wrote:
D'aww. "I won't let nothin' happen to yeh". Caesar is such a sweetheart!

Already I am having silly images in my mind of Caesar heroically defending Parson.


I did appreciate that. The fact that Caesar actually considered Don's plan was worrying when I read it. Of course I know what happens now. That's the benefit of a story dump like I got (man I kissed Erfworld), but I must say the idea of Parson being a resurrected warrior is a fascinating one. It's like the original ending to the Full Metal Alchemist anime where our world's dead souls became the source of power for the power of alchemy in Ed's world. It would be a twist on that level of warp fucker that I would enjoy immensely. That being said, it's probably not true. There's no "Roxas is living in a fantasy world" Kingdom Hearts kind of twist in this story.