Book 3 - Page 20

Book 3 - Page 20
Comic - Book 3 - Page 20
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Thecommander236 wrote:


Interesting. But I think that supports my argument a little. If a unit is flanked they may need to roll for a block, like always, but with a penalty. Like maybe they normally roll a D20 for block/parry/dodge/counter. However when they are flanked, they roll a D20 minus 6.


It depends, if the flanking affects surrounded units stats which in turn affects the dice, it would probably have a smaller impact than if it affects dice rolls directly. If it affects surrounded unit's leadership bonus it would perhaps have the biggest impact.

All I wanted for Yule was a simple mathematical reason or limit against munchkin stacks, but it badly seems that it gets all strategery-y. :)

Thecommander236 wrote:

There are two other theories I would like to add:
1) Units who trained together with each other fight more effective than they do with strangers and/or those who trained with different drills. Even if two stacks have the same class and are similar in level, they may not complement each other in a single stack.
2) Once a stack engages, all units in the stack must engage or be in a position to replace the dead/wounded in the front of the stack. Any units that can't do so are automatically removed from the stack. This could easily occur in a 2 dimensional battle where warriors are pressed close together. Battle lines often move very erratically.


1) On this I have to disagree. Their leaders chance, there is no under officers, there is nothing that points them forming some sort of platoons or squads and military isn't a big clique party. On more meta-level: This would go against the strategy aspect of Erfworld (the world-as-game) as it would start to differentiate the basic units from each other, on level of Erfworld the comic the characters (the movers of the story) have been the henchmen, casters, warlords and rulers, not the basic units.

2) I also agree that units must stay in a relatively close group to be a stack and they would be un-stacked if they are incapacitated or removed by force, but I doubt the rule that defines the stack would depend on the enemy.

Thecommander236 wrote:


Also, look what I just noticed:

Image

Stanley WAS flanked. In fact, if you look at Book 1, Episodes 112 to 114, you will see a lot of example of what we are talking about.


Damn, I had completely forgotten it. Remember that it was Stanley's turn to move so it was an ambush. Page 110 even shows when Stanley enters the trap, I wonder if the Transylvito units were veiled or if there exists also an separate ambush mechanic. <EDIT>Just a little addition: it might have been a veil as Jack needed to point it out to Stanley, or the Transylvito units used their move to form an ambush (ambush-move?) that counts as natural foolamancy.</EDIT>

http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/122

Carl wrote:

Also regarding flanking. Take a look at any formation of people from above, no matter how they're arranged, if they're packed tight the outer layers of men will have more men in them than the inner layers, as a result if completely surrounding a super blob will always be able to get less people fighting the attackers than the attackers can get fighting them, giving the attackers an important combat edge.


This might be nitpicking but remember that the dominance of the outer ring gets smaller as the inner ring grows.
Can't TV Warlords keep Bats inside their clothing? Maybe the bats were just store until the trap was sprung.
Wow, so many pages about the "rule of 8".

So, here's the actual Clog that talks about it: http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/44

It doesn't say that 8 is a max size, or even that units are limited to that size. It says "Groups of units get a stack bonus that caps at 8, so you see a lot of 8 man formations"

That reads to me more like it is a MINIMUM limit to effectively maximize bonuses rather than an upper limit.
Galdon wrote:

It doesn't say that 8 is a max size, or even that units are limited to that size.


Did anybody in the entire thread claim either of those two things?
OneHugeTuck wrote:
Galdon wrote:

It doesn't say that 8 is a max size, or even that units are limited to that size.


Did anybody in the entire thread claim either of those two things?

Yes. Repeatedly. Largely in the form of statements along the lines of "But there has to be a hard limit or people would use giant stacks all the time"

Which is why I am noting that no upper limit was ever implied when talking about the rule of 8 in the actual clog.
If there is a hard limit (openly speculating here), what if it's based on a fixed number of a stat rather then a fixed number of units?

For example, the average erf stabber takes up, say, 3 units of size, a dwagon takes up 7, a bat only takes up one or maybe even a fraction, etc. So If we go with M as max stack, it's not M units, but M units of size. So a stack could consist of a whole lotta bats and a warlord but those same numbers wouldn't apply to Stanley and his dwagons (which is why he could only take so many knights with him that one time, all those dwagons put him close)
I always assumed Stanley didn't bring all the KISS he physically could because of money. He was expecting to lose GK itself and needed to refound three cities that wouldn't produce much for a while.
Galdon wrote:
OneHugeTuck wrote:
Galdon wrote:

It doesn't say that 8 is a max size, or even that units are limited to that size.


Did anybody in the entire thread claim either of those two things?

Yes. Repeatedly. Largely in the form of statements along the lines of "But there has to be a hard limit or people would use giant stacks all the time"

Which is why I am noting that no upper limit was ever implied when talking about the rule of 8 in the actual clog.


That was Oberon chastising me for something I never came even remotely close to saying.

Nobody ever claimed that 8 is a max stack size or that units or stacks are limited to a max size of 8.

We did fix my years-long-running misunderstanding about the rule of 8, that stack bonus maxes at 8 (the maximum stack bonus which caps at 8), but I don't think that's what you're referring to.

There were lots of statements contemplating max stacks and max stacks sizes and 'people would use giant stacks all the time', I certainly agree with that.
Galdon wrote:
OneHugeTuck wrote:
Galdon wrote:

It doesn't say that 8 is a max size, or even that units are limited to that size.


Did anybody in the entire thread claim either of those two things?

Yes. Repeatedly. Largely in the form of statements along the lines of "But there has to be a hard limit or people would use giant stacks all the time"

Which is why I am noting that no upper limit was ever implied when talking about the rule of 8 in the actual clog.


You must have misunderstood the conversation, or perhaps skimmed quite much of it (Klog 004 was posted and talked about already). We were not wondering why especially 8-unit stacks are used and nobody was saying that 8-unit stacks are the maximum size. We were talking about reasons why anybody would choose several smaller stacks instead of one big.

One can't expect the first klog that mentions stacks to explain every rule governing them, and as there has been several mentions of max stack in the comic and then the comic has shown that same "max stack" consisting of well over 8 units it is reasonable to assume that it meant hard cap of stack size and not a stack with the maximum stack bonus. Assuming the last would be the same as Stanley giving an order to "Prepare 8 or more dwagons to battle!" where the "8 or more" could mean anything between 9 and infinity.
Spruce wrote:
Damn, I had completely forgotten it. Remember that it was Stanley's turn to move so it was an ambush. Page 110 even shows when Stanley enters the trap, I wonder if the Transylvito units were veiled or if there exists also an separate ambush mechanic. <EDIT>Just a little addition: it might have been a veil as Jack needed to point it out to Stanley, or the Transylvito units used their move to form an ambush (ambush-move?) that counts as natural foolamancy.</EDIT>

http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/122


I think they were just hiding on the ground in two groups. Letting the trees block them from view. Then they just flew up to surround Stanley. Cities are the only place where there's zone boundaries.

Here's an equation for you C/S <= M where C is a constant, Size is the combine size stat of all units, and M is the maximum size of a stack. That would be the easiest way to state what you guys are referring to.