Book 3 - Page 189

Ace is not a King

Book 3 - Page 189
Comic - Book 3 - Page 189
Recent posts... (See full thread)
Aaron wrote:
onepot wrote:

If you're referring to Jack being able to talk about Charlie and stuff after being decrypted, that was due to the 'Deal of a Lifetime' - which ended with Jack's first life. While it's not entirely impossible that every one of Charlie's NDAs includes that term, it's also possible that some or most of them just say 'You aren't allowed to disclose any information to parties outside CC'. If it hasn't the term 'as long as you live' or something like that in it, Decryption by Wanda won't change a thing about it.


It might, if being decrypted was sufficient for the decryptee to be considered an entirely new unit. One with the specials "Can't Be Uncroaked" and "Zero Maintenance Cost". In that case, this new unit would not be bound by any contracts that some other unit that happens to be very similar to this one had signed.

Good point. I still prefer to believe it was due to the 'lifetime' wording, but for no other reasons than that I like that better somehow. Without another testing by decryption, I guess we can't know for sure.
EvanD wrote:
JadedDragoon wrote:
Anomynous 167 wrote:


But seriously, I assumed that everyone had accounted for the fact when they all had their hate-ons for Sizemore. Same reason I never mentioned how Ace's "I might surprise you" and Bonnie's "Well you didn't" is ripe with dramatic irony.
Ace was subtly undermining Bonnie, and she didn't even notice.

edit:I mean come on, you see Ace's face? He was clearly challenging Bonnie.


Except they don't have a hate-on for Sizemore. They have a hate-on for Parson and Sizemore is caught in the middle... a fact that Sizemore clearly blames Parson for... not the free casters.


I thought the hate-on was referring to the people in this thread, not the MK.

Then you thought correct.
Madhattan wrote:
I would have loved a more elaborated view of that council dispute i can somehow assume some reasons why Sizemore was adamantly against hiring a carnymancer.

- Carnys having a bad reputation by themselves
- Carnys probably quite completely in CC's lair
- Barbarians probably beeing prohibited to work for GK while the trial stands.

Approaching a Carny would probably be leaked to Charlie and the MK community (with some carny-spin to it). While i agree having a plan B, i also think Plan B shouldn't undermine Plan A. A failed approach would further weaken GK's position in MK possibly FORCING plan B (Juggler invasion)
Again, they could go to a third party or use Bonnie's intel to get to an unaligned carny, or unaligned side with a carny that hasn't joined the other carnies. Or a signamancer experienced in coercing carnies into doing his will. There has to be someone there. They could search, and if they don't find anyone, give up. Instead they were prohibited from even trying.
There is no risk to the plan A in trying, in fact, showing interest in plan B provides cover for plan A and forces Charlie to spread his resources to cover all options even if he discovers either of those plans.
And again, losing Wanda would be monumental. She is not just attuned, which is rare enough, she is the attuned with the most overpowered ability we know of.

Madhattan wrote:
An invasion that takes place at a HUGE risk for Wanda&Co (if its brought to work at all), that would have to be carried out without Parson, Maggie and Jack (and Ansom, who everybody seems to forget). The leadership core of non-decrypted is just Stanley and Sizemore. All others may be in jeopardy by a tactical execution of Wanda.

I doubt Jugglers could brute-force their way quick enough to save Wanda, even if modifying the portal would succeed. There are plenty of Master Class Casters with other abilities than hobokens. An attack on MK would probably be a disaster and could even end the side GK without CC intervening directly. TV would lose the alternative bidder and either keep Parson, Wanda and Jack themselves or sell them to Charlie.

And there is Charlie who can actually send in relief-reinforcements (Archons possibly even goblinoids, although i doubt it. I think the units must have some casting abilities to pass, but that is an assumption and i digress).
Dirtamancers are keeping Wanda & Co in their dirtamansion. You assume dirtamancers are like warriors. Most of the barbarian dirtamancers live happy, easy lives in the magic kingdom. They are wealthy, respected and admired. Most haven't seen an enemy soldier since their sides fell, if at all as they contract sides to stay far away from enemy forces (they are wealthy so they can choose), or work for other casters.
Do you really think that with a force of juggles with rifles that overruns their way to the dirtamansion they will execute the prisoners and prepare for a last stand?
They would agree to terms and surrender.
Likewise to other casters in portal park, the moment they see their hobokens not doing shit as more and more juggles pour into portal park they would run for the hills.

ftl wrote:
One reason that Bonnie's "hire a carny" plan seems dumb is that it doesn't seem to appreciate the difficulty of the task. I'd put it as a goal, not a plan.

If Parson were to go out and try to hire a Carny, I would believe that he would figure out some clever plan to figure out one he could trust or blackmail or something, come up with a clever thinkamancy thing to ensure loyalty or whatnot. It wouldn't be just, like walk in and do a hire.

Bonnie seemed to have none of that. It seemed like "oh, I have dossiers, so let's just go and get one". Even worse - it was sending Sizemore go get one, without the dossiers! That's a sure way to get a spy on your team.
That is the thing, it is a goal, not a plan. The plan would fall in Sizemore's hands or the council with Sizemore in it. Instead the goal got shot down and now they are left without a backup plan to rescue the most valuable unit in erfworld.
What do you mean without the dossiers? you are speculating out of thin air, it's clear she has been using her intel on Charlie for a variety of reasons, why would she choose not to use it this time?. Sorry but you aren't making any sense there.

Arkaim wrote:
TwoXMachina wrote:
Frankly speaking, starting to hate Sizemore. He's being super ineffective and bringing down the whole GK.

It seems to me it's more like Bonnie is being a bit naive. Trusting the Great Minds to essentially declare war on all of the Magic Kingdom. Trusting a carnie to sign their own death warrant by allowing an invasion into the MK.

A caster from a far more respectable discipline is facing banishment for enabling Charlie who has a great relationship with the MK. GK is terrible. Carnie's are terrible. Wheeling and dealing are carnie's wheelhouse. It seems more likely they would use GK's offer to get some better less risky deal (with Charlie perhaps) rather than risking life and limb for a side they hate.

I like what Ace is doing here. It puzzled me how he would be more than a sideline character.
Naive would be to trust the MK to free Wanda in a fair trial, when GK has only the thinkmancers firmly on their side thanks to Parson, while Charlie has been growing and cultivating his influence in the MK for tens of thousands of turns. He has agents even in the group that hates him most, the Great Minds, and not some lowly pawn but their friggin headmaster!
Instead Bonnie is making contingency plans and contingency to contingency plans.
In short, Bonnie is making miracle lemonade with the rotten lemons she was given.

Fla_Panther wrote:
LiveDrinkRepeat wrote:
They don't have to kill everyone. They don't even have to kill anyone. The moment they show up with the juggles and show their hobokens don't do shit casters will run for their quadrants and the forces will be free to try to rescue Wanda & Co


I like how you've conveniently forgotten that casters can do other things besides hobokens.
Yes but most casters aren't used to fight units head on, most are closer to civilians, or are so used to a civilian-like life they would avoid fighting if at all possible. The moment they see a horde of units pouring in -as opposed to the few they outnumbered last time- and their hobokens failing to do any damage, they would surrender or run for the hills.

kaylasdad99 wrote:
Mark this post. When that scenario plays out, I will give you all of my Shmuckers.

BTW, in your earlier post, who exactly is the weirdomancer you're referring to?
Haha thanks but while I doubt it would play like that, there's no need even if it somehow comes true. Personally I just reward good fanfictions because that is some awesome work.
I was refering to Claud, the gun-creating dollamancer, who I think might have some specialization in weirdomancy, or maybe know a few bits like Ace with his flying backpack and Wanda with her repertoire of cross-class spells.

Taejang wrote:
Feels like updates are coming later in the day.

So we didn't get to see Sizemore pull rank. Disappointing, but much quicker from a narrative standpoint.

Bonnie admits to undermining her own side to attempt to save it. She clearly assumes Plan A will fail. No trust in her teammates. Sidemates? Fellow Knobbers.

Ace considers one of the thousand alternatives to hiring a carny. Bonnie apparently has way more useful intel than anyone knew, and is clearly incapable of using her knowledge effectively. I mean, even if you did hire a carny, wouldn't you at least wonder how guns were made in the first place? And if you knew who did it, why not ask? Only downside is tipping off Charlie, but if you were hiring a carny you'd be doing that anyway.

I'm beginning to suspect Bonnie's flaw is Tunnel Vision.
Huh? he pulled all the rank possible, he prohibited any contact with carnies.
It's not a matter of trust, it's about contingency plans, when there is a goal as monumental as saving Wanda, you need to have all kinds of backups, can't go half-assed because as the saying goes, no plan survives contact with the enemy. And this enemy is friggin Charlie not some average joe.
To be fair, in this case, Tunnel Vision is pretty friggin important, Wanda's true value is maybe a hundred times the worth of the whole side, and her loss could mean the death of many key players, including Bonnie.

Thecommander236 wrote:
Why would Bonnie think Plan A will fail anyways? She's the one who negotiated it to happen. Does she not trust the Janis or the Great Minds based on their Dossiers or is that information something else Charlie hid from them? If Bonnie has proof that Roger is a traitor, then I want to hear it right now, damnit. Maybe she just doesn't want to tell the GM about Charlie because Parson told her to be careful with what she said.
Again, it's about having backup plans in case something goes wrong. Bonnie already told the GM some/much/most or reached an agreement to tell them everything in payment for their services.
I really really doubt she knows about Roger, not only that is critical information, she doesn't need to know about it since she will never get in contact with him as an AAA. FFF would be the only ones to know, he himself admitted losing one of his FFF to decryption would have been even worse than losing Bonnie, due to how much more they knew.

Crisco wrote:
Taejang wrote:
No idea why she would assume it will fail. But what other reason would she have of stating, "even to save the side" unless she thought her backup plan would be necessary to save the side?

There's an old saying here in stupid world: "expect the best, but prepare for the worst." It would stand to reason that a unit originally from CC would be intimately familiar with the philosophy behind that line, even if not the line itself. Charlie is all about having backup plans for everything. That being said, not having a backup plan would likely be tantamount to planning to fail, in her eyes. I could easily see her justifying the creation of a backup plan as, effectively, saving the side.
Yesss, so much this.

Taejang wrote:
Or just let Wanda die. Use her death like Machiavelli and forge more favorable relationships with the MK and sides in erfworld. Buy peace agreements, hire casters, and take Charlie out with special forces instead of brute force. As long as GK has the 'pliers, they can return to erfworld-ending decrypted army smashing whenever they find someone to attune. This would be a long-term plan, but not impossible.
I agree on the need of other plans, but this one is too risky, and there's also the fact all decrypted love Wanda so that's not an option for them. Wanda is special even without the pliers, fate chose her to attune from the start, and we know from Jetstone that it can take generations for the pliers to attune. GK could spend the next 50.000 turns until it finds the next attuned for the pliers, if they last that long and keep the pliers, all the while the decrypted, if they didn't all dust with wanda, will be impossible to replenish. Also, the next attuned might just be a warlord that can mass dust undead and nothing else. Both Wanda and her atunement are too valuable a combo to lose.

EvanD wrote:
I thought the hate-on was referring to the people in this thread, not the MK.
I can only speak for myself, but I don't hate Sizemore or think he is unintelligent, just that he is terrible as a leader, and only valuable as advisor when he is an opposing voice to calm down the craziest of plans.

Aaron wrote:
I was pretty clear that I don't want the decrypted to dust. I just don't want Wanda to be so important. She's boring to me. Similarly, I don't want Parson to get repatriated and put back in charge again, for the same reason.

Bonnie is a well-written character, so well written that I don't want to read a story that she plays a significant part in, because she is entirely unlikable to me.

As far as Charlie "using Parson" to roll over GK, has Parson been Ordered to do anything or been forced to do anything he didn't want to by Duty since he declared himself a player? I don't recall that happening (although I could just be forgetting, so I welcome correction). I think that even if he *could* order Parson to steamroll GK, Parson would at best be a monkey's paw for Charlie, as Parson is there with the express purpose of getting rid of him. If Charlie were to buy Parson, I suspect he'd immediately put him in a very little box in a very deep hole with juju put on him to keep him out of reach of the Great Minds, etc. That would minimize the risk from him being Fate's Charlie-killer, and hopefully prevent Fate from bringing in a new one.

Lastly, your tone toward me seems pretty snide and adversarial. It might be spilling over from some of your other conversations, or it maybe just be that's the way you talk to everyone, but either way, I'm not liking it, and I don't think I've earned it. Please stop.
It is clear you don't want the decrypted to dust, but I think you don't understand the characters don't know if this will happen or not, and they should always err on the side of caution when half their forces maybe be lost in an instant. Bonnie is working with this thought in mind, while Sizemore isn't because he fears/hates carnymancers more -and his life isn't at risk. In fact his life would be better if GK falls-.
Parson was ordered to shut up, and he couldn't speak. If he couldn't repatriate to GK -and Charlie has the best signamancers and carnymancer around to make sure next time he can't-, he can be forced to destroy GK or anyone else Charlie chooses. Charlie is fighting fate, and just as he probably destroyed an instrument of fate in Jillian to serve him, I expect he will use an even better instrument of fate in Parson to fight against it.
Snide and adversarial? for saying "lucky you" as my argument resulted in what you specifically wished for? man that reeks of victimism but ok, I'll explain why I answered with gentle banter -and nothing else- to your post. I dislike when people wish death on characters that aren't absolutely evil for petty reasons, these may be liked by many, or may be their favourite characters, and you just wished permanent death on this one providing no reason for why this is good at all.
Quote:
Do you really think that with a force of juggles with rifles that overruns their way to the dirtamansion they will execute the prisoners and prepare for a last stand?
They would agree to terms and surrender.


Have you ever played Dwarf Fortress? Or heard of it? I envision the Dirtamansion being like the most ridiculously over-trapped player-made fortresses in that game.

Some elves show up and want to take the prisoner? The Dirtamancers will sit back and watch them try to enter. Maybe after a few hundred elf bodies have clogged up the first corridor, the elves will give up and retreat. But then they won't even make it to the minecart railgun, or the magma waterfall, ....
greycat wrote:
Quote:
Do you really think that with a force of juggles with rifles that overruns their way to the dirtamansion they will execute the prisoners and prepare for a last stand?
They would agree to terms and surrender.


Have you ever played Dwarf Fortress? Or heard of it? I envision the Dirtamansion being like the most ridiculously over-trapped player-made fortresses in that game.

Some elves show up and want to take the prisoner? The Dirtamancers will sit back and watch them try to enter. Maybe after a few hundred elf bodies have clogged up the first corridor, the elves will give up and retreat. But then they won't even make it to the minecart railgun, or the magma waterfall, ....
I doubt it's crazy like that, and I insist these people will be mostly cowards at heart, so when they see a horde of warriors and warlords advancing on them and demanding things they will just submit.
Will they really die rather than give up some caster they have no real beef with? they are holding Wanda because it's the safest place not because they hate her with a passion.

But let's assume they are all a bunch of Rambos and their house is the craziest fortress there is. Dunno how many elves you can buy with say 5 million schmuchers, but I'm guess it's a lot, enough to take the rest of the MK with just a small portion of that money, just block CC portal -or all portals- and round up all barbarian casters offering them peace, and maybe guaranteed income or access to safe -for GK- sides for as long as GK occupies the MK.
Then if even with Sizemore you can't assault it, just siege the dirtamansion, even with hundreds of casters in GK payroll, it is likely barbarian casters will run out of money before GK with its tens of millions. They could use the great minds to block any attempt at thinkagrams so they can't receive money from outside.
Again, will they really die rather than give up some caster they have no real beef with?
Why would the Dirtamancers engage personally with the (hypothetical) invasion force? Dirtamancy is all about traps. Bullets are considered a "Dirtamancy trap".

But anyway. It's all entirely academic at this point, because GK's portal is still normal, and the juggle elves can't use it.
greycat wrote:
Why would the Dirtamancers engage personally with the (hypothetical) invasion force? Dirtamancy is all about traps. Bullets are considered a "Dirtamancy trap".

But anyway. It's all entirely academic at this point, because GK's portal is still normal, and the juggle elves can't use it.
When using your -slightly extreme- scenario where millions of schmuchers worth of elves can't break into a dirtamansion defended by 20 or so dirtamancers, I mentioned siege, meaning not engagement between forces, just surround them and starve them as they will be unable to get contracts or schmuchers from other casters or sides.

Agreed.
The other issue is that GK doesn't just need to break in to the dirtamansion, they need to break in quickly or quietly enough that they can't just execute Wanda.

I would guess that a response to an invasion could be:
1) execute Wanda
2) seal off all entrances and exits from the mansion. They're Dirtamancers, they don't needed actual corridors, they can tunnel.
3) run away via underground tunnel.

GK needs it's casters, especially Maggie for links, or Jack for subterfuge, to foil this. As soon as they have those I bet Parson will be able to come up with a sufficiently leet rescue plan.
@LiveDrinkRepeat: It's not that I don't understand that they don't know. It's that I don't CARE that they don't know. I was speaking about where I'd like the story to go, not what in-character actions I'd like to see get it there. It is true that Bonnie shouldn't dust with no narrative gain, though. I suppose I actually don't care whether Bonnie dusts or wanders off into never-never land or just stops getting screen time. Or in some way becomes more likable. I have no beef with her personally, because she's not a person. Just a (to me) wholly unlikeable fictional character.

I realize that she may be other people's favorite character, just like other people dislike Jillian Zamussels, whom I like, and would like to see more often. Just as I don't get riled when folks don't care for her and state that they wish to see less of her, I don't see any reason why folks should feel put upon when I have similar sentiments about other characters.

As far as Parson being ordered to shut up, that happened very early in book one. Has it happened since the end of book one, when he threw away his sword and used a normally censored word?

My request that you use a different tone with me wasn't victimism. Victimism would have been if I had tried to make you feel like you were hurting me (shaming you) or threatened to go to admins (threatening you). I did neither. I didn't assume you wished me any ill, rather I think you probably always use that tone of communication on forums, judging by the way you've interacted with others here. I told you that I didn't like your tone, that I didn't feel it was warranted, and I politely told you to modify it. That's not victimism. That's assertiveness.
ftl wrote:
The other issue is that GK doesn't just need to break in to the dirtamansion, they need to break in quickly or quietly enough that they can't just execute Wanda.

I would guess that a response to an invasion could be:
1) execute Wanda
2) seal off all entrances and exits from the mansion. They're Dirtamancers, they don't needed actual corridors, they can tunnel.
3) run away via underground tunnel.

GK needs it's casters, especially Maggie for links, or Jack for subterfuge, to foil this. As soon as they have those I bet Parson will be able to come up with a sufficiently leet rescue plan.
If we assume a pretty crazy initial buying cost of 1000 per juggle they can still swamp the MK with 5000 juggles (or 30-35k if they really want to invest in the rescue).
If I'm one of 20 guys protected (read, trapped with nowhere to go) in a bunker with a prisoner surrounded by 5000 to 35000 guys, the last think I would think of is executing the prisoner, since at that point Wanda is no longer the hostage, me and my fellow dirtamancers are.


Aaron wrote:
@LiveDrinkRepeat: It's not that I don't understand that they don't know. It's that I don't CARE that they don't know. I was speaking about where I'd like the story to go, not what in-character actions I'd like to see get it there. It is true that Bonnie shouldn't dust with no narrative gain, though. I suppose I actually don't care whether Bonnie dusts or wanders off into never-never land or just stops getting screen time. Or in some way becomes more likable. I have no beef with her personally, because she's not a person. Just a (to me) wholly unlikeable fictional character.

I realize that she may be other people's favorite character, just like other people dislike Jillian Zamussels, whom I like, and would like to see more often. Just as I don't get riled when folks don't care for her and state that they wish to see less of her, I don't see any reason why folks should feel put upon when I have similar sentiments about other characters.

As far as Parson being ordered to shut up, that happened very early in book one. Has it happened since the end of book one, when he threw away his sword and used a normally censored word?

My request that you use a different tone with me wasn't victimism. Victimism would have been if I had tried to make you feel like you were hurting me (shaming you) or threatened to go to admins (threatening you). I did neither. I didn't assume you wished me any ill, rather I think you probably always use that tone of communication on forums, judging by the way you've interacted with others here. I told you that I didn't like your tone, that I didn't feel it was warranted, and I politely told you to modify it. That's not victimism. That's assertiveness.
People trolling other posters, or trying to hurt other posters behind the moderator often go with pretty vicious attacks on characters said posters defend. There's also the people who take characters too seriously and feel hurt when people talk negatively about them. A few days ago some other comic made an announcement that prohibited people talking negatively about cameo characters.
As much as all those are fictional characters and this is a story about a fictional world here we are, 14 pages worth of very real and very time consuming comments about a single page of fiction. Fact is people are attached to characters and being brutal to said characters may affect the readers to some point.
I don't think it's wrong to say the things you did, mind you, I think you are perfectly in your rights to do so, just that you should be willing to receive criticism for that comment back, like they say, don't dish out if you can't take it.

Look man, you asked about orders affecting Parson, I gave you a crystal-clear example, then you counter with more questions based on some sort of headcannon? (because implying book 1 is outdated and somehow not cannon anymore is a headcannon as far as I know).

Yes, your request was asertiveness. The claim I used snide and adversarial language towards you when it wasn't, was victimism ("Mocking or derogatory in a malicious or ironic way"? derogatory? malicious? ironic? seriously?). And dunno about my tone being so bad, there are people throwing ad-hominems around and getting tips for it lol.
Anyway I don't think we are going to go anywhere good so I think we can agree to disagree on this point.