Book 3 - Page 176

Two friends talking over a cold one

Book 3 - Page 176
Comic - Book 3 - Page 176
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oslecamo2 temp wrote:

The very story we've all been reading could not exist if there was some spell to force people to tell the truth or you could just read the character's minds directly. Plenty of characters would've already tried to use such magic beforehand and made most of the plot lines impossible.


It could exist, but be rare, difficult, expensive... it could require a link-up of casters not currently available to any side. There are many possibilities.
DrunkMonkGar wrote:
Taejang wrote:
So using the GMs as stand-in for the MK "government" is probably passable, even if incorrect, simply because they have exerted the most power and influence directly (that we have seen). Using them as stand-ins for the trial judge is not so good.

Fair. It was just getting my goat that page after page people were talking like the GMs were the be-all-end-all of the MK.

Quote:
Beyond the GMs, we do know more about the carnies than the other groups. But saying the MK is run by carnies goes against the belief that most MK residents don't trust carnies all that much.

Everything in the comic goes against that belief. Everyone in the MK will believe every word a carny says and subject themselves to be groped by the same at will.


Carnymancy is cast through touch, go look back when Jojo is screaming that Gobwin Knob has invaded, what is he doing to every person he's talking to?

Image

And everyone is so freaked out by the actual events that they don't even notice. Hell. BENNY wouldn't have known he'd been casted on if he hadn't recognized Jojo and found it too coincidental. And he wouldn't be able to confirm it without the bracer. As Parson said, Carnymancy actually has the stronger Mind Control.
DrunkMonkGar wrote:
Quote:
Beyond the GMs, we do know more about the carnies than the other groups. But saying the MK is run by carnies goes against the belief that most MK residents don't trust carnies all that much.

Everything in the comic goes against that belief. Everyone in the MK will believe every word a carny says and subject themselves to be groped by the same at will.

I didn't think of this until just now, but I agree. People distrusting Carnymancers seems to be an informed attribute only in this comic.
greycat wrote:
oslecamo2 temp wrote:

The very story we've all been reading could not exist if there was some spell to force people to tell the truth or you could just read the character's minds directly.

It could exist, but be rare, difficult, expensive...

Maybe it is possible, but just kept secret.

Because it would probably make known mindreaders unpopular/extinct ...
Miryafa wrote:
DrunkMonkGar wrote:
Quote:
Beyond the GMs, we do know more about the carnies than the other groups. But saying the MK is run by carnies goes against the belief that most MK residents don't trust carnies all that much.

Everything in the comic goes against that belief. Everyone in the MK will believe every word a carny says and subject themselves to be groped by the same at will.

I didn't think of this until just now, but I agree. People distrusting Carnymancers seems to be an informed attribute only in this comic.

It's been discussed at length in reaction threads, and it consistently irritates a group of readers. It's actually started the whole 'Carnies are OP' movement in the forums. I absolutely hate the fact that they're portrayed as so completely distrusted at first, and then all of a sudden everyone just takes them at their word. It doesn't make any sense, practically speaking. Something happens, a Carny says it happened this way, it must be true. Bleh, Carnies...

Anyway, re: leadership in the MK - there's a very real possibility that there's a pseudo-government in the 'heads' of each faction, alluded to in the discussion between Jojo and Charlie. We had each faction referred to as a whole, and it's presumed that most casters within each of those factions will fall in line with their respective heads. For the eyemancers, it's almost certainly the GMs, and the hippies have at least Janis, probably a few others from the other disciplines, while Jojo appears to head the Carnies, and so on. So, it's probable that the heads of the factions, or at least each individual faction's leadership, is made up of that faction's qualified members. At the very least, that's my best guess at how things work. If the rep is to be believed, and Jojo's interaction with the dirtamancer in book 2 is any indication, there may not be any qualified Carnies (or, more likely, there are some but they're far more rare than others).

As for the trial, eh...I think we're better off not seeing the details, at least for now. Perhaps once the dust settles here, we can see a breakdown of it all, but I don't want the action to be broken by trial stuff right now. Maybe it'll be explained in the book 3 epilogues, or early book 4 (perhaps even prologue there), but it really wouldn't even hurt my feelings much if it were never fully fleshed out.
Belrodes wrote:
JadedDragoon wrote:
wakko wrote:

Ok, maybe I missed something, but isn't the explanation "Titanic Magic" and/or "the Arkenpliers allowed it" enough? No need to explain cosmic string theory or anything. I mean, before the Arkenpliers, would anyone have believed you can be brought back from the dead? With no upkeep? In the magic kingdom (as a non-caster)?

It's true. It's believable (as believable as any other things Titanic magic allows for (Retconjuration, portals, unlimited thinkagrams, unlimited move, no upkeep/ressurrected units). I mean, is it just me, or does anyone else think the fact that she used a tool of the gods, one proven to have miraculous abilities, is kind of explanation enough?


Sure, it's believable, if you are willing to. The free casters aren't. They are looking for a way to punish GK.

So they insist on calling things that have always been impossible impossible... even though there is reason to think maybe they never were.


I've always viewed Erf's relationship with the Titans as being like 16th Century Western Europe. I'll be putting Erfworld equivalents in parentheses. Even if it seemed strange to you, it was "common knowledge" that God (the Titans) was real, he ordained certain superior men to rule (royals) and there are clear signs of his divine will that can be interpreted through Biblical scripture (Books of Canon and Fanon). After ages of unchallenged rule, new people (Toolists) show up who claim that God's (the Titans') will did not choose the path that the ruling classes hold dear and everything gets really, really ugly as the old guard (RCC 1 and 2) try to exterminate the evils of the new threat through wars and unfair trials.

Maybe I'm just too much of a historian, but it parallels pretty nicely in my brain. We've actually had discussions on the forums about whether or not the Titans even exist, and we've seen them in-comic. Erf is very much a world where religion and politics do not separate.


I've pondered the origin of the Arkentools. Because Rob has not given us any details, it's all postulating. I agree with the fracturing of ways of thinking and we do have support in comic for that. Where did the tools actually come from?

Because they are real objects and rendered as such, are they artifacts of the connection between the two? Have they been realized as a result of new thoughts? Are they the result of a fracturing among the Titans? All of the above?
Miryafa wrote:
DrunkMonkGar wrote:
Quote:
Beyond the GMs, we do know more about the carnies than the other groups. But saying the MK is run by carnies goes against the belief that most MK residents don't trust carnies all that much.

Everything in the comic goes against that belief. Everyone in the MK will believe every word a carny says and subject themselves to be groped by the same at will.

I didn't think of this until just now, but I agree. People distrusting Carnymancers seems to be an informed attribute only in this comic.

Now that you mention it, I also agree. We were "told" nobody trusts carnies, but in every situation we've seen, we "see" people trusting them. That's a disconnect between Rob's "telling" and what he is "showing" us.

Or else whichever character(s) said carnies weren't trusted were lying or ignorant. I can't remember when it was told to us, so I can't analyze that angle. Anybody got a source?

oslecamo2 temp wrote:
The very story we've all been reading could not exist if there was some spell to force people to tell the truth or you could just read the character's minds directly.

We have seen mind reading. Charlie and a healomancer did it in link up. It isn't a matter of possibilities, but rarity. Perhaps it requires the Arkendish, but I rather doubt it. With the displayed abilities of thinkamancy, turnamancy, date-a-mancy, signamancy, and carnymancy, and the angle of healomancy displayed through the linkup I just referenced, I think it is a safe bet somebody or some group of casters in a link can do mind reading.

We also have some kind of mind reading displayed by Bill, a dollamancer, here. Key line: "And when the screams dwindled to sobs, the doll withdrew, because it knew. It knew how to be her." Bill/the doll read her strings and gleaned information from them. We know Bill knows thinkamancy secrets and combined them with his dollamancy, so a link between a thinkamancer and a dollamancer ought to be able to accomplish the same thing he did.

It really is just a matter of how many casters can do either lie detection or mind reading, not if anyone can at all.
Belrodes wrote:
JadedDragoon wrote:
Belrodes wrote:
I've always viewed Erf's relationship with the Titans as being like 16th Century Western Europe. I'll be putting Erfworld equivalents in parentheses. Even if it seemed strange to you, it was "common knowledge" that God (the Titans) was real, he ordained certain superior men to rule (royals) and there are clear signs of his divine will that can be interpreted through Biblical scripture (Books of Canon and Fanon). After ages of unchallenged rule, new people (Toolists) show up who claim that God's (the Titans') will did not choose the path that the ruling classes hold dear and everything gets really, really ugly as the old guard (RCC 1 and 2) try to exterminate the evils of the new threat through wars and unfair trials.

Maybe I'm just too much of a historian, but it parallels pretty nicely in my brain. We've actually had discussions on the forums about whether or not the Titans even exist, and we've seen them in-comic. Erf is very much a world where religion and politics do not separate.


Uhm... hmm. I'm sorry I'm not picking up on the relevance to my comment. I honestly can't even tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me. What am I missing?

Are you saying that they would accept that it's just a power of the pliers because they automatically accept everything that is godly as an explanation for everything? Cause that's not entirely true, historically speaking. Sure that was the standard... but any time it became inconvenient those in a position of power (including mobs of commoners) would conveniently forget such details. Check out the Salem witch trials for a case study in such behavior.

Right now the free casters have a huge axe to grind against GK. So that's what they are doing. The titanic nature of the pliers is inconvenient... so they dismiss it. Since there is no direct evidence the pliers can do what Lilith claims and the judge, the jury, and the executioner all want to believe the pliers can't do that (cause they all want an excuse to kill Wanda)... it doesn't matter that the pliers are literally titanic in nature. Not today it doesn't.


Sorry, I typed that out while conversing with my wife and did an awful job proof-reading to make sure I made sense. What I was saying is that the issue GK finds themselves in when defending themselves isn't one of logic that can be explained by saying "I used Titanic magic" because their previous claims to such divine favor is why everybody hates them. The holiness of the 'Pliers is not up for debate, but to the quorum Wanda has defiled not only the entire life axis of magic but a relic left by the gods themselves.

Because of that built-in belief, that decryption is an evil trick used by a false prophet, Janis could never have won this case. She would first need to convince the quorum that decryption is authentic Titanic magic and the Titans chose a croakamancer to hold sway over the life axis. That idea would only make this mock trial more hostile, because there's a global religion on the line.


Ah, good points. Makes sense.
Taejang wrote:
Miryafa wrote:
DrunkMonkGar wrote:

Everything in the comic goes against that belief. Everyone in the MK will believe every word a carny says and subject themselves to be groped by the same at will.

I didn't think of this until just now, but I agree. People distrusting Carnymancers seems to be an informed attribute only in this comic.

Now that you mention it, I also agree. We were "told" nobody trusts carnies, but in every situation we've seen, we "see" people trusting them. That's a disconnect between Rob's "telling" and what he is "showing" us.

Or else whichever character(s) said carnies weren't trusted were lying or ignorant. I can't remember when it was told to us, so I can't analyze that angle. Anybody got a source?


I think the main source for that was Dove from the Digdoug backer story. She's a carny herself, so her view is biased, but I'd have to reread it to be sure.
Orpheus wrote:
DrunkMonkGar wrote:
Everything in the comic goes against that belief. Everyone in the MK will believe every word a carny says and subject themselves to be groped by the same at will.


Carnymancy is cast through touch, go look back when Jojo is screaming that Gobwin Knob has invaded, what is he doing to every person he's talking to?

Which goes to my second point that not a single one of them objects to Jojo pawing at them like a debased drunk. Personally I don't let known grifters run the bases on me, but that just seem to be part of living in the MK.