Book 3 - Page 16

Book 3 - Page 16
Comic - Book 3 - Page 16
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Lilwik wrote:
DVL wrote:
If juice topped off every turn, then it makes no sense to speak of it in units of turns.
It would make sense in certain contexts. For example, it would be quite ordinary to talk about a half-turn worth of juice. One turn worth of juice would simply mean all the juice available in a turn. Amounts of juice greater than one turn could be used in a spell if you start casting on the enemy's turn and finish casting on your own turn, so your juice gets refilled in the middle of casting. It would also make sense for city improvements to require 3 turns worth of juice if that's how many turns your Dirtamancer needs to finish the job.


We've never seen a spell continue between turns. Kingworld's effect went off immediately during Gobwin Knob's turn.

It's an extravagant extra entity that has no evidence for its existence.

Falcon X wrote:
Ever played an RPG with ritual spellcasting? The idea is that it takes an extended period of time. You lay on magic to start the ritual, but then add more as time passes and your magic replenishes.

A spell does not have to be an instantaneous casting. The casting time can be multiple minutes, or even multiple turns.


No evidence. It also doesn't directly contradict my recharging idea.

Silversought wrote:
I disagree with the idea that juice can be saved from turn to turn. "Spare juice" wouldn't exist if juice wasn't completely reset between turns.

Vanna's wording can be comfortably explained by the idea that she meant "It was like casting a draining spell on our last turn and on the one I just started" since that would be two turns' worth of juice.


Still no evidence of channeling.

Silversought wrote:
I disagree with the idea that juice can be saved from turn to turn. "Spare juice" wouldn't exist if juice wasn't completely reset between turns.

Vanna's wording can be comfortably explained by the idea that she meant "It was like casting a draining spell on our last turn and on the one I just started" since that would be two turns' worth of juice.


I've refuted that directly already.
If the limit I can "save" is three turns, then why not just say my hard cap is three turns?

Let's say for example that Vanna has 15 units of Juice as her maximum cap. She recharges to 7 per turn. She casts Kingworld and drains 14 units. So on Faq's turn she has 1 unit of Juice. Which would be pretty low. The following turn, she is back up to 8.

Also: Still no evidence of channeling.

0beron wrote:
Bunny's Juice is actually our most concrete proof that Juice restores to full daily. If she could save it, then it would be against her Duty to waste it just chatting up with folks for no reason.


Again, same example as Vanna. Let's say that brief Thinkagrams are a trivial amount of Juice. Perhaps especially if it's a one-way with no reply such as when Caesar does all the talking to her.

Mind you, at the time of her secret call with Caesar, there were no major wars yet. So she's very near the cap. If she simply spends less juice per turn than she would normally regenerate, she is always capped at the start of next turn.

So let's say that she recharges 30 units a turn. The average cost of her calls thus far is something like 10 units. She decides to budget 1 unit for her call to Caesar out of a sense of Duty. Just be extra sure. And only after she's confirmed that all the units on her side of exhausted their moves. Since she's a Thinkamancer, she'd be privy to that information anyway.

In the unlikely event that her side is attacked off-turn, there aren't a lot of orders to issue anyway. Mostly she would just keep tabs on them. And she would have a rough idea of how much that would take. Parson is unusual in that he's actually one of the few Warlords to try and and make things happen off-turn. (And even then, he doesn't make very many calls.)

Again, those numbers are utterly made-up. You can twiddle with the exact details, but the principle remains the same.

Quote:
Also consider a few othe rimportant details. Transylvito is at war, allied with multiple sides, none of whom have a Thinkamancer of their own. Given that, the notion that Bunny could be spending less than 80% of her juice each turn is pretty far-fetched. Maggie is responsible for only 1 side's communication, and she has run flat out of Juice before.
Next, also consider that the conversation with Bunny always just fade out. If she was using a finite amount of Juice and then stopping while she still had a reserve, she'd say goodbye. But no, the calls just fizzle out, implying she runs dry.


Again, the call with Caesar was before the major battle at Spacerock. And again, Bunny isn't coordinating hardly anything anyway since the Don is watching from the sidelines and keeping tabs on Faq, who is doing all the real fighting. He expects the fight be a foregone conclusion.

If she's cutting of the call abruptly, there's also a couple of good explanations given what we know:
1) That she isn't going over her budget for that turn.
2) She's afraid of being caught. Her relationship with Caesar is secret.

Quote:
The Kingworld juice-cost thing has been turned over and over and over again, by very stubborn folks who will twist words/semantics into bizzare meanings just because they want to be right. The simplest and most logical conclusion is that either 1) because the combined Juice pool is bigger, it felt like a lot to Vanna or because 2) the spell was cast over the course of multiple turns. But there will be many people who don't want to accept such a simple answer, so the debate will rage on endlessly until Rob explicitly tells us. So let's do everyone a favor, and not debate it ad naseum. Its a topic folks are pretty stubborn about, so no minds will be changed, in my experience.


That is a cop-out. "Everybody is equally wrong and nobody is right."

You've all actually been proving me right.

If I can store up to three turn's Juice, then it's perfectly reasonable to spend two of them in one turn. Channeling is redundant to the explanation.
DVL wrote:
Let's say for example that Vanna has 15 units of Juice as her maximum cap. She recharges to 7 per turn. She casts Kingworld and drains 14 units. So on Faq's turn she has 1 unit of Juice. Which would be pretty low.
Her turn just started so she should have 8 units of juice because she drains 14 and recharges 7, unless the spell somehow cost her the juice she was due to recharge. If so that should be included in the cost of the spell.
yeah, i'll say kingsworld probably made her unable to cast any spells on the created turn.
aka, 1 turn of juice spent on the enemies turn to activate it. an you sacrifice all the juice you would have gained due to turn change. so 2 turns.
0beron wrote:
effataigus wrote:
Nah, consider the case that you get 1 juice per day, with a limit of 2. Bunny could then, while obeying her duty, waste 0.1 spare juice if she had 1.1 just before the start of her next turn. Duty wouldn't allow her to go to 0.9 just to say goodbye. The matter is unresolved IMO.
You failed to present even a single new piece of info or argument.

Aha, I thought the problem was that you didn't get someone's earlier argument, so I was clarifying for you. It seems the problem is partially that you're either referencing something I'm unaware of or just making stuff up. Specifically...
0beron wrote:
Casters know how much juice various tasks take;
Source? I'd buy that this is approximately true without a source because it seems likely, but EXACTLY true?

The other part was that I didn't realize you were trying to build an argument on the "call fading" logic. I see some cracks in that logic...
1. She could say goodbye just before she ran out or just before she hung up... either way.
2. Bunny actually says nothing at all that we are privy to in that conversation.
3. The call "fading" seems no more dramatic than
http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+1/100
http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+1/102
... neither of which were times in which a caster ran out of juice. If anything, the case where Maggie was interrupted was the less dramatic one of these two examples.

0beron wrote:
whereas my plea that we let dead horses lie is in regard to Kingworld... I'd be delighted if I never have to hear "Kingworld" ever again, after how this forum has beaten it to death, destroyed the grave, followed it to the underworld, killed it again, and followed it through the reincarnation wheel to repeat the process.
Hahah, nice. However, I raise you one more... I'd go so far as to say people arguing that people shouldn't argue about Kingworld has been done to death on this forum. I'm not about to try to stop you from making that case (immediately after arguing about Kingworld) though. This is because I never bought the argument that beating dead horses actually does any damage. Sure, certain forumites couldn't keep their temper under wraps when discussing Kingworld, but history showed that those people would find something else to get cranky about if not that spell.

Wow. I'm like a broken record of not buying arguments, huh...
DVL wrote:
You've all actually been proving me right.

Your arguments don't seem to really hang on anything besides pure speculation though.

On the other hand, we had a good long story from the perspective of a caster - DigDoug.

There was no reference to juice in the whole story that could act as support for your interpretation, even though he spent several turns being transported by hippo-crate, after which would have been the perfect time for a mention of having extra juice to spend.

Instead, practically every time juice was mentioned, it was because he'd spent all his juice for the day. It was even directly referred to as "his day's juice" or "his juice for the day" a couple of times, including the day he got off the hippo-crate with, by your interpretation, more than a day's juice.
"Caesar sighed, wincing at a sudden new awareness of his wounds. Whatever spare juice Bunny had at night, she usually burned it with a voice call to him. These lasted as long as they lasted. They kept him sane."

How this can be taken any other way is really beyond me. When night comes, Bunny uses all her remaining juice to talk to Caesar.
Lipkin wrote:
How this can be taken any other way is really beyond me. When night comes, Bunny uses all her remaining juice to talk to Caesar.
Well, if I had to guess, I'd guess your take is correct. I'm just saying I wouldn't convict that case of murder... or even petty theft.
I should point out that, if I had to guess, I'd guess the 1 turn of juice full-refill theory is correct. I'm just saying I wouldn't convict that case of murder... or even petty theft.
*eyeroll, and increasing my Foe list by one*
There was however one thing from a quality poster I did want to follow up on, because unlike the majority of this topic, it's not stale opinions.
effataigus wrote:
0beron wrote:
Casters know how much juice various tasks take;
Source? I'd buy that this is approximately true without a source because it seems likely, but EXACTLY true?
To clarify, I want to set aside the convenient notion that Juice is represented by any numerical value. We assume it is, because that's convenient for discussion purposes, but Juice numbers have technically never been mentioned in comic.

So given that context, what my statement really meant is that Casters know how much they can accomplish with a given "degree" of effort. I feel that this has been mentioned offhand in several cases, but there are two which come to mind immediately. One is early-Goodminton Wanda, in which she describes what she might be able to raise from the casualties, so even as a young caster who has never performed the spell in question, she knows "I have Juice, and here's what I could give you with it.". The second is Vanna when Jillian asks her if she can Turn Ansom, and she replies something to the effect of "With the Juice I have left? Unlikely."

So to use a a stupid world analogy, it's kind of like knowing how far you're able to run before you get tired. "Tiredness" isn't a numerical metric, but you know what numerical results you can get in exchange for a subjective (but personally consistent) amount of effort.
Knott wrote:
I think there might be a slight continuity error going on here.

When listing Stanley's stack he only had one Green Dwagon with him.
Vurp rode in on a Green Dwagon.

And now there is suddenly a Green Dwagon here with a different rider...


Salvage wrote:
I just realized that Vurp was riding the only green in the hex. There is a green dwagon shown with a rider being decapitated. Not a big deal I just thought I would point that out.


Yea, they're right. There's an art issue here. I just noticed it myself while I was scanning the battle and I decided to see if it was noticed here. So I went through the page 18 reactions and found two people commenting on it. Rob hasn't replied or fixed the issue so I figure he might have overlooked the two previous posters bringing it up.

In which case, I think a reminder is in order. As page 16 seems to be the one with the art mistake, this is where I will mention it.

Start of the battle: 1 Green;1 Yellow;1 Purple;1 Pink; 3 blue; 2 red

Page 14- Purple killed

Page 16- Vurp is on the only green/ Vurp jumps off the dwagon, and gets turned. The dwagon is now riderless. Probably dead.

Page 18- a green dwagon with a rider is shown near Stanley. Along with a yellow red and pink

Page 19- a blue, red, yellow, green is shown.

Page 20 Yellow, red is shown getting rid of riders, that are promptly caught.

Page 21- 1 Green;1 Yellow;1 Pink; 2 blue; 2 red are shown. This is two less then before. Meaning 1 purple and 1 blue got killed. All dwagons were shown having riders until Stanley ordered them to get rid of the knights.

Looks like there was a miscolour.

The green that was Vurp's mount likely was what got eaten. Also, 3 blues were never shown at any one time after Vurp defected.

Therefore, Vurp's mount should be recolored to blue on Page 16.