Book 3 - Page 152

Not the Beans we wanted to see

Book 3 - Page 152
Comic - Book 3 - Page 152
Recent posts... (See full thread)
Mirage GSM wrote:

And if he walks up to the Russian embassy in Switzerland, they get to mow him and half a dozen of passersby down with a SMG?


If he invades Russian embassy (remember, Parson looked like a GK unit when he went through the portal) after occupying Swiss territory and using it as his strategic ground, yes, they get to mow him, and collateral damage is his own fault for using previously neutral territory as an attack platform.
So with Wanda being held in the Dirt Mansion...

for crimes she committed while in conflict with Charlie...

and Digdoug ending his story in the Dirt Mansion and a beef against Charlie...

....possible escape situation here? Maybe Digdoug asks to take guard duty and forgets to lock the door? Maybe he builds a tunnel to get her out?
Mirage GSM wrote:
Ansan Gotti wrote:
This is just my impression, but I get the sense in Erfworld that life -- even caster life -- is considered pretty cheap against a backdrop of constant war, with an earlyish death being inevitable to such an extent that fatalism is the default. And I think you see elements of this in the way that MK casters without the necessary upkeep all head to that pier.

The bigger offense almost seems like the violation of tradition and the disruption of their lives.

So I think Carl has the right of it here, and just because we might want to graft our own Stupidworld legal sensibilities onto the trial, it doesn't necessarily follow that the trial will be that way.


Saying you can't apply Stupidworld Standards because Erfworlders might see it differently is not much better than saying "It's not like that, because I think it's otherwise."


Hint: There's a reason I said, "This is just my impression," and not, "This is the way it is."

Mad Humanist wrote:
So Vanna is an example of the dumb blonde trope. So far it seems to have been played fairly straight. She has shown almost no agency simply taking her instructions from Charlie and enjoying the ride. Her abandoning of her oath to her Queen suggests shallowness and similarly there is a suggestion she is having sex with Duncan in a purely professional capacity. Jojo provides contrast as he also is taking orders from Charlie but has his own love story. Her name "White" suggests that she is a "blank" and her character will never be developed beyond this role. Or may be our expectations of her are being set up for a shock reveal.


I don't really get that at all, and if anything, the recent vignette from her POV makes her more impressive to me, rather than less. And she has been quite pivotal in a number of her appearances.

With that said, if anyone is going to be from that trope, it's a decent bet that her name plays into it.
Carnymancers don't need to be that good to have the effect we see. It doesn't take much persuasion to convince a mob that the guys they hate for unrelated reasons are ALSO guilty of whatever else is going wrong at the time. And Jojo did his persuasion while bullets were flying and smoke was thick, nobody was in a position to stop and think. And by the time the smoke clears, it's too late: by that time it's not a theory, it's a memory.
MerchLis wrote:
Menas wrote:

So if I dress you up as a KGB agent does that mean the CIA get to shoot you on sight? Even if you're an American citizen? And the U.S. and Russia have a non-aggression pact?


If both U.S. and Russia are currently violating it (and are de facto in a state of war), and CIA agent shows up in Kremlin, then yes, KGB gets to shoot him on sight.


Ok, I think we're getting too far in the weeds on that part of the discussion and the original point is getting lost.

My point remains that since Parson was an agent of CC when he went through CC's portal, and he'd been ordered to pass through the portal, I don't think you're going to find anyone in the MK or Erfworld for that matter who would objectively believe that Parson was committing an act of aggression against CC by going through the portal, whether he was veiled or not.

Parson didn't veil himself, and nowhere in the contract between CC and GK does it state that veiling a unit of the other side is considered an act of war or an act of aggression either.

Finally, as some others have stated, Parson was seen in the MK in CC livery talking to the GK troops for a substantial amount of time prior to entering CC's portal.
mroozee wrote:
There has been a great deal of talk about the legal details of the Battle in the Magic Kingdom; the vast majority of which miss THE key point. In Re: Firebaugh is a political trial masquerading as a criminal trial.

PGLH has shown the ability to enter the MK, blow up mountains, change the course of mighty rivers, bend steel in his bare hands, etc.. And he has allies in the MK -- Janis, the GMTTA, the late Marie, any of Sizemore the Rockstar's friends, and so on. And his side has 2 Arkentools that they are attuned to! A verdict that results in executing Wanda is a declaration of war between the MK and GK.

Charlie has shown the ability to send Archons into the MK, has developed the most powerful weapons Erf has ever seen (other than whatever Parson did), and has allies - both overt and covert - spread throughout Erf including and especially in the MK. He also has an Arkentool that he is attuned to! A finding that Charlescomm was responsible for the mess in the MK may not result in a declaration of war but it will require strong sanctioning and will have consequences.

For those with an agenda on the Tribunal, including those whose Sides have an opinion on whether they prefer GK or CC, the decision is already made and it's just a question of how to sell it to the other casters. If you are unaligned, the safety and security of the MK is still a concern as is how the other casters will accept the verdict. The LAST thing you want is a Proxy War within the MK. The SECOND TO LAST thing that you want is a direct conflict with either GK or CC.

I expect a negotiated, "pox on both your houses" verdict. Something like:
1. Wanda, Parson, and any decrypted are forever barred from entering the MK
2. CharlesComm will pay reparations for those killed
3. Both sides will pinky swear to never again violate the rules of the MK

Other terms may apply... maybe they demand the Arkenpliers... maybe a contract agreeing to these terms with a 1B Shmuckers penalty. But whatever the verdict, it will be political and not an attempt to appease the non-existent Titan of Justice.


Good point on the verdict most likely affecting both sides. I expect that both sides will have to agree to terms and potentially penalties as well in order to remain on good terms with the MK.
MerchLis wrote:
Mirage GSM wrote:

And if he walks up to the Russian embassy in Switzerland, they get to mow him and half a dozen of passersby down with a SMG?


If he invades Russian embassy (remember, Parson looked like a GK unit when he went through the portal) after occupying Swiss territory and using it as his strategic ground, yes, they get to mow him, and collateral damage is his own fault for using previously neutral territory as an attack platform.

If that's what you think...
I doubt you'd find someone who agreed with you if you tried that argument, but it seems arguing the point is wasted time.
mroozee wrote:

I expect a negotiated, "pox on both your houses" verdict. Something like:
1. Wanda, Parson, and any decrypted are forever barred from entering the MK
2. CharlesComm will pay reparations for those killed
3. Both sides will pinky swear to never again violate the rules of the MK

Other terms may apply... maybe they demand the Arkenpliers... maybe a contract agreeing to these terms with a 1B Shmuckers penalty. But whatever the verdict, it will be political and not an attempt to appease the non-existent Titan of Justice.


I like it. It's a pragmantic response to "look, we know we can't exactly stop either of your sides, and a lot of us want to do various business with and/or advance your varying agendas, but we do need these repeat situations of both your soldiers flooding the MK, resulting in the death of casters, to stop instantly."

A reasonable "other terms may apply" result would be Dirtamancers wall up both CC and GK portals. Maybe they put a highly secure gate in them that could be opened with MK permission, maybe they don't. That wouldn't really stop either side- Charlie could C4 them open, GK could Dirtamancer them down- but in both cases the noise would trip alarms.
Speculation- Charlie has probably sent veiled archons into and through the MK previously during low traffic times to quickly move them around the world. You would do it at night so there are minimum eyes to blow the veil, and have Agents like Jojo or Vanna spot check that there are no particularly Detecting casters like Lookamancers or Foolamancers.

Any side he's friendly with, he just asks the side (or guides them in to asking him) to open up an "Embassy" with one or more overt, known Archons in the city. Maybe she's an advisor. Maybe she's a bodyguard. Maybe she's acting as for-rent Thinkagram machine for a side that doesn't have a Thinkamancer. Maybe she's providing Full Service to the Ruler or a debaucherous Prince or Princess. Maybe she's Tutoring someone. Whatever. The side is paying Charlie for her to be there.

The side effect is, she's a known Neutral party who is gently adding her presence to the city. So when the veiled MK Archons come flying through, the Ruler doesn't immediately sense the city is Contested, it already had Archons in it. "CC Archon in City?" was already set to True. They had a contract allowing CC to have Archon(s) in the city. Maybe a Master Signamancer would pick up on this point and insist on allowing only specific Archons by name. Charlie could even get around that by getting a caster with the power to Rename units lots of archons to the same name. A standard part of the pre-op checklist!

Anyway. Every city Charlie has an Embassy with, is also now a drop point for veiled archons moving across the MK and into the world. I feel positive Charlie has been doing this for ages. They already have sky high move, but add this to Charlie's tricks. And then add some PR to people getting them used to the idea that of course Charlie has Archons physically present everywhere in the world. They have high move. That's how.
I doubt Charlescomm will agree or pinkie swear to anything, primarily because he's got no units in the MK.

If he did, I'd bet they'd be on trial as well, but they're not. Charlie's not going to pay any reparations, and won't *agree* to anything.

GK has to go through this farce of a trial because Wanda's trapped in the MK. She's a hostage. But Charlescomm doesn't have any no hostages in the MK.

Ivan and Claude and Jojo could be made hostages if people realize they know enough of Charlie's secrets to be able to hold the secrets hostage. I'm not sure anyone knows that much about their dealings with Charlie to realize that's an option.