Book 3 - Page 142

It's about leadership

Book 3 - Page 142
Comic - Book 3 - Page 142
 
Recent posts... (See full thread)
Whispri wrote:
CarniDollMancer wrote:
@ Whispri:

Your headcanon is aimed funny... I disagree with you on 95% of the points you made, but everyone else has made every possible point and you refuse to bend in the light of solid evidence... Might wanna get that headcanon calibrated.

In all seriousness, the headcanon thing is a joke I thought of after my initial points. I wanted to make the joke, but I hope it didn't offend. I was just being silly.

I am curious what it would take to convince you since people have shown pages that literally prove your points false. What kind of proof would work if hard evidence does not?

This is a rather simple premise. I'm speaking of his conduct in the office of chief warlord. I do not care who he spoke to in his capacity as empty building inspector. It is his behaviour as chief warlord (among his other inadequacies) that I am criticising, not the company he kept prior to that.

But the people he spoke to prior directly affect the time as chief. It matters and is relevant.

I think the most important argument you ignore about his decisions as chief is that his actual decision was to make another the chief so they could get the high bonus on site. Once he was made chief, would they not would have lost with near certainty had he not attempted to give his meager bonus to the soldiers?
CarniDollMancer wrote:
@ Whispri:

Your headcanon is aimed funny... I disagree with you on 95% of the points you made, but everyone else has made every possible point and you refuse to bend in the light of solid evidence... Might wanna get that headcanon calibrated.

In all seriousness, the headcanon thing is a joke I thought of after my initial points. I wanted to make the joke, but I hope it didn't offend. I was just being silly.

I am curious what it would take to convince you since people have shown pages that literally prove your points false. What kind of proof would work if hard evidence does not?


When someone gets to the point of posting how they spit on the main character, and even write out the sound effect to make the contempt clear... makes it extra clear there's no convincing to be done. Either read and move on or foe and move on.
zilfallon wrote:
... maybe Hamster doesn't even have hits and acts like a Stupidworld unit. A normal human surviving 4 shots to legs, especially when he is healed with magic right after, isn't unbelievable.


You and I have different ideas as to what is believable for stupidworld biology. If you're going to take 4 shots to the leg by stupidworld physics, then the same stupidworld physics don't permit magical healing, and he has to wait for start-of-turn healing.

... wut did I just say?
ftl wrote:
CarniDollMancer wrote:
@ Whispri:

Your headcanon is aimed funny... I disagree with you on 95% of the points you made, but everyone else has made every possible point and you refuse to bend in the light of solid evidence... Might wanna get that headcanon calibrated.

In all seriousness, the headcanon thing is a joke I thought of after my initial points. I wanted to make the joke, but I hope it didn't offend. I was just being silly.

I am curious what it would take to convince you since people have shown pages that literally prove your points false. What kind of proof would work if hard evidence does not?


When someone gets to the point of posting how they spit on the main character, and even write out the sound effect to make the contempt clear... makes it extra clear there's no convincing to be done. Either read and move on or foe and move on.

Eh. That's your move. Not mine. I have 0 people on my Foe list, and only one would ever have earned it, but that was before I knew of it, and they were off forums before I learned. Thinking something that is wrong is not a reason to be Foe'd. Even being unconvincible(able?) isn't good enough. For me you have to be blatantly disrespectful to other Forumites, not to characters, and arguing what you believe (even if there is good reason not to believe that) is a bad reason to Foe someone. If you don't get Moderator action for your behavior, it is unlikely you'll ever be Foe'd by me.

People around here jump to Foeing way too fast.
Keybounce wrote:
zilfallon wrote:
... maybe Hamster doesn't even have hits and acts like a Stupidworld unit. A normal human surviving 4 shots to legs, especially when he is healed with magic right after, isn't unbelievable.


You and I have different ideas as to what is believable for stupidworld biology. If you're going to take 4 shots to the leg by stupidworld physics, then the same stupidworld physics don't permit magical healing, and he has to wait for start-of-turn healing.

... wut did I just say?

Uhm, either you completely missed the point or I totally failed at understanding you. Just because he's from stupidworld it doesn't mean he is immune to all erf magic.
CarniDollMancer wrote:
Eh. That's your move. Not mine.

I agree with your stance on putting people on Foe list. That kinda destroys the whole point of participating in an online forum. Unlike you, I don't even care if they're "offensive", this is the internet and I accepted the fact that everyone can be mean to everyone :D
Whispri wrote:
... They made plenty of diplomatic overtures prior to Spacerock. Ansom just wasn't interested in committing war crimes, unlike the despicable monster Parson 'evil' Gotti.
-- snip --
As for his so called diplomacy, he's planning to betray and murder those sides fool enough to listen. I spit on him for that. *ptoi*


In book 1, Parson does an ass-pull, that involves violating parley, in order to survive when he had no other choice.

In book 2, Parson was actually wanting to have a real parley, only to be told that it would be a pointless waste of time. His advisor did not know that the actual leadership had changed, and the new leader really did want to have a real parley.

Now it is book 3; will we see parley? Or will we get a warning about the next person to mention parley being shot? :-)
Whispri wrote:

I think recent events have exposed Marie's incompetence quite thoroughly.


Actually in my opinion Marie has shown herself to be quite competent as a
Predictamancer. Not only could her predictions be acted upon, she provided good solutions to resolve the issues. She kept FAQ hidden for a long time, and while doing small subtle things she saved GK from Charlie. Not one of Delphie's predictions helped Goodmitton one bit. And the predictions that Posbrake received locked events in place that made things into a tangled mess. One of the keys is to predict threats, instead of outcomes.

And I believe that the reason Marie did not predict the caster revolt, is because it was impossible to predict that event in advance given what we know about how erfworld predictions work. I believe that erfwrold predictions are not literal readings of the future. It uses meta information of the present, to enforce probable events of the future. If the revolt had happened naturally without Jojo interference it would have been more likely to predictable. If it was part of Charlies plan it would have likely been predicted by Marie. But it was a quick decision made by Jojo, which took the game world by surprise, and making it an unpredictable event.

I look at what has been predicted and what hasn't to help figure out how predictamancy, and the inner workings of erfworld works. What Marie has predicted has given a lot of clues in that regard.
zilfallon wrote:
Keybounce wrote:
zilfallon wrote:
... maybe Hamster doesn't even have hits and acts like a Stupidworld unit. A normal human surviving 4 shots to legs, especially when he is healed with magic right after, isn't unbelievable.


You and I have different ideas as to what is believable for stupidworld biology. If you're going to take 4 shots to the leg by stupidworld physics, then the same stupidworld physics don't permit magical healing, and he has to wait for start-of-turn healing.

... wut did I just say?

Uhm, either you completely missed the point or I totally failed at understanding you. Just because he's from stupidworld it doesn't mean he is immune to all erf magic.


Misunderstanding. I was saying that magic wouldn't work, but then he'd magically heal at start of turn.

We know that start-of-turn healing works, so we know that magic works, so we know that he can be healed by magic.

Your original comment that, "A normal human surviving 4 shots to legs, especially when he is healed with magic right after, isn't unbelievable" -- that is unbelievable because magical healing doesn't exist for normal humans.

In this case, Parson isn't a normal human -- he's a fated human, and as plenty of people have pointed out, there's enough dice around for fate to borrow a good roll for him. If anything, his carelessness, and reliance on fate's shuffling of dice, is costing other people good rolls.

Now, if there's some way to make sure that fate takes _enemy dice_, instead of friendly dice ...
zilfallon wrote:
CarniDollMancer wrote:
Eh. That's your move. Not mine.

I agree with your stance on putting people on Foe list. That kinda destroys the whole point of participating in an online forum. Unlike you, I don't even care if they're "offensive", this is the internet and I accepted the fact that everyone can be mean to everyone :D

Agreed. Throwing people on a foe list doesn't help any more than scrolling past the argument or poster you're uninterested in (That's what I did here) and has a chance to cloud your judgment in the future. If I was as quick to foe people up as gets recommended, I honestly would have put Zilfallon on there for...something? I think we disagreed on a topic and I was in a bad mood. It would have been totally undeserved but I wouldn't have thought to reconsider it. I've agreed with Zil twice in the past 12 hours, that's worth the slight irritation I got from something I don't even remember now.
oslecamo2 temp wrote:
The first time Artemis is presented in action, she has time for long inner monologues. Yes we don't know how long they lasted, but I bet it's quite a bit more than 10 seconds.

In particular, ancient stupidworld archers were expected to be launching new arrows before the first even landed, while Artemis leisurely takes her time to see where her arrows go.

I did specify aimed shots. Both an archer and a rifleman can attain a higher rate of fire by sacrificing accuracy. It would not surprise me that units in Erfworld could do something similar, fire rapidly with a penalty to accuracy. I don't know for certain, though.

oslecamo2 temp wrote:
Bonnie's report was that there were 4 casters dead to guns.

Then Bonnie kills another, plus the other two archons may've each scored a kill. But those were point-blank shots from the rear, hardly a show of efficiency. She could've just as well used a dagger in that situation.

And by that time there was only a couple poor stabbers shooting before Bonnie decided "fuck this noise, I'm out of here with the arkenpliers".

Unless those two stabbers turned stupidly eficient in the last moments of the battle, the guns didn't really perform any better than the bows and hobokens.

That was at the very beginning of the battle. Artemis had just ordered them to veil. Bonnie started gaining altitude and her assessment of "she could see four enemy units . . . down by rifle fire" was before reaching the height of the treetops. Plus that is only what she could see, not necessarily all the casualties inflicted. Also, her comment about Marie croaking and a rifleman being dusted places the moment of that assessment at the end of this strip, at which point Gobwin Knob's active force consisted of 3 archers plus Artemis armed with bows, 3 stabbers, Parson, and Downer armed with rifles, 3 archons armed with rifles, and 2 decrypted casters. Downer and 1 rifleman were dusted the next page. Parson later asked why he was killing dudes. Unless he was using hyperbole to ask why he was shooting at people, he probably got some kills after that. Parson and 2 riflemen were still active in the image where Bonnie grabbed the Arkenpliers. Artemis is incapacitated and one of the Beans dusted the next strip. Given the prisoners shown, 3 of the archers and riflemen were dusted before the collide-o-scope. All the archons survived or escaped. I don't think Bonnie's quick assessment that early in the battle can be taken to demonstrate how inefficient the riflemen were. We would need to know the total number of casualties and the total number by what mechanism to make such an assessment. Also, as Sir Dr D pointed out, there are other benefits to assault rifles such as suppression. A weapon doesn't necessarily need to score the kill to be efficient. If a squad is fighting an enemy and the SAW keeps the enemy trapped in a room long enough for a couple grenades to be chucked in there, the firearm contributed significantly to those kills even if it didn't score them.

oslecamo2 temp wrote:
That's a really big grain of salt indeed. Your historical report was quite interesting, however here's a situation where we go straight from bows to automatic rifles with nothing in between. Also notice that erfworlders laugh at disease, having auto-fullrestore at each dawn, so a bullet that wounds but doesn't kill is inferior to blowing up somebody to little pieces.

But the point that units in Erfworld fight tightly packed in groups of hundreds still stands. It's one thing to have bows by any other name, but what really changes the game is when your stabbers can deal area damage.

Also cannons made everybody rethink how fortifications were designed.

The autohealing has many ramifications that apply to explosives as well. In Stupidworld combat, it is often considered better to wound an enemy than kill them. If you kill an enemy, you remove 1 enemy from the field. If you wound an enemy, you are also removing his buddies who have to carry him away. I do think you are overestimating the fatality of explosives. In the Civil War, 33% of battlefield casualties were fatalities. In WW II, 30% were fatalities. Vietnam was 23%. Iraq and Afghanistan are about 10%. I could make a specious argument about how the proportion of fatalities has decreased as the mechanism has switched in favor of explosives, but the major part of that is better medical care: wounds that would have been mortal no longer are. Still, explosives aren't guaranteed to kill. There just as likely to wound. They may blow off a foot or they may just give you a splinter. For the record, my father was in Vietnam. He was caught in a barracks bombing. He got a tiny scratch, but he was classified as wounded. Most wounds by any mechanism aren't immediately fatal. Once again, we don't know how damage translates from Stupidworld to Erfworld. In the real world, the main cause of death from mortars is shock lung. The concussion of the blast causes your lungs to bleed and you drown in your own blood, but there is little physical damage done to the body. Erfworlders don't bleed, so that won't happen to them. For them, it's all about how many hits they take. Some explosives deal damage in concussion. Some deal it with overpressure. Some deal it through fragmentation. How would those different damage types translate to Erfworld?

Guns aren't perfect. Studies have shown repeatedly that the best results are achieved through combined arms. Ideally you want riflemen supported by cavalry (horse, armored, air, whatever), fire support, air superiority, etc. You want those riflemen to have grenades and mortar support. If I was in a cratered, blasted urban environment or was trying to clear rooms at close quarters, I'd probably want explosives. If I was facing an enemy over flat, open terrain, I'd probably want firearms. In the latter situation, explosives only are valuable if the army is tightly bunched. You might be able to take out 2 stacks with 2 grenades. You could take out a half dozen or more with a gun and 2 magazines.

I would argue, though, that the American Civil War is the best example to use for switching from bows to firearms, where the tactics used lagged far behind the technological advancement. There were more American casualties in that war than every other American war combined. There were battles with higher casualties than Americans troops have suffered since the start of the twenty-first century. The next best example would be World War I, but they at least had learned some lessons from the earlier conflict.

zilfallon wrote:
Well, Artemis is a "fantasy archer" :D It isn't uncommon for fantasy archers to completely ignore real archery practices. Here, we are just supposed to let it go by saying "this isn't stupidworld, here, archers make one attack per round" or something, I guess...I don't know. Decrypted Artemis turned out to be a disappointing character overall.

She isn't dusted yet. Her actions are reasonable given she is still probably trying to reclaim her former glory. I do think her character still has potential for some interesting growth. Since she's a tertiary character at best, I won't be devastated if it never happens, but I do think it would make an interesting addition to the story.

As I mentioned, just because you have guns doesn't mean you best know how to employ them. GK was pretty boned because they were surrounded and outnumbered. Artemis's tactic was sound. If you have a squad in a firefight, one fireteam suppresses while the other attempts to flank. It wasn't her best option, due to the tipods, but it was better than just sitting there and trading potshots. I wonder if and when Parson and Jack get back to GK, if Parson will train the new riflemen using a Call of Duty type simulation run by Jack.