Book 3 - Page 110

"Hope you've got clearance for 40."

Book 3 - Page 110
Comic - Book 3 - Page 110
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Hm, would walking *out* of the city through the portal be a violation? I'd assumed entering would be, but not escaping. I suppose I won't know until/unless it happens. (and only if it won't disband Lilith, like I think it would)
Daethalion wrote:

I don't see how Lilith's status as a prisoner would have any bearing on her freedom to walk through the portal without consequence, since she's still a GK unit even as a prisoner, but that's immaterial because right now Lilith is not a prisoner of Charlie's. Wanda and Maggie were able to remotely repatriate her as a free GK unit with the Pliers, so she is really a hostile unit within the city, and her passage through the portal would definitely count as a treaty violation.

However, I think a lot of people are also forgetting that Parson is aware of this, and has already planned against it - he ordered Lilith to toss her bounties through the portal into the Magic Kingdom, croaked Archon and all. He made no mention of Lilith going through the portal herself. My guess is he intends for her to either escape the city via more conventional means, or find some way to goad Charlie's Archons into croaking her in the attempt so GK can recapture its lost funds. Yeah it sucks and it's a little cold-hearted, but they don't really have any other viable options at the moment.

They were saying Lilith was exempt from defaulting the truce by virtue of being brought to Charlescomm against her will. She as a prisoner, so GK isn't punished for being in CC territory. Any units that enter CC territory breach the contract, but Lilith is fine.

There is nothing in the contract specific to portals, as far as my brief reskim could tell. If Lilith were able to travel to the MK, she could without causing further loss of funds. I highly doubt she can though.
Gorgon wrote:
The archons being real casters thing came up a few times before, and I think it was summed up (at least for me) with there being an actual special called "Caster" that they don't seem to have.

So far we haven't been shown the stats of any Archon, so they might very well have it. Even if they don't we don't know if being able to cast or having "just" a special like "Thinkamancy" might be enough to satisfy the conditions for using a portal.
ArkenSaw wrote:
Does anyone really think Charlie would not have already tested this if there were any doubt?

Oh, I'm certain Charlie knows one way or the other, but so far he hasn't mentioned anything about it, and even if he did, I wouldn't trust his word.

Dante wrote:
If not, can the Pliers "encrypt" a Decrypted unit back into a corpse, then Decrypt the corpse back to life after it's moved?

Now there's a very interesting thought. Have a Shmucker.
Lipkin wrote:

They were saying Lilith was exempt from defaulting the truce by virtue of being brought to Charlescomm against her will. She as a prisoner, so GK isn't punished for being in CC territory. Any units that enter CC territory breach the contract, but Lilith is fine.

There is nothing in the contract specific to portals, as far as my brief reskim could tell. If Lilith were able to travel to the MK, she could without causing further loss of funds. I highly doubt she can though.

I'm looking forward to the contract expiring between CC and GWK expires. No one can remember every specific phrasing of the whole damn thing. I'm wrong about entering portals, (on contract re-read number 8ish), it was specificly invade, occupy or render useless. We don't even know what invade means in an Erfworld context.
Nightseraph wrote:
I'm looking forward to the contract expiring between CC and GWK expires. No one can remember every specific phrasing of the whole damn thing. I'm wrong about entering portals, (on contract re-read number 8ish), it was specificly invade, occupy or render useless. We don't even know what invade means in an Erfworld context.

Heh, I only started replying in the forum because of all the contract debates (other than a hamstard that disappeared long ago), so at first I was rereading the actual comic pages, then the wiki text ones. I was so glad to finally stumble upon the all in one version with how many times it gets reread.
*I also keep resisting the urge to fix the typo in "Confidentialty" here, and all the other text versions, because of the forum links it will break

Mirage GSM wrote:
Gorgon wrote:
The archons being real casters thing came up a few times before, and I think it was summed up (at least for me) with there being an actual special called "Caster" that they don't seem to have.

So far we haven't been shown the stats of any Archon, so they might very well have it. Even if they don't we don't know if being able to cast or having "just" a special like "Thinkamancy" might be enough to satisfy the conditions for using a portal.
ArkenSaw wrote:
Does anyone really think Charlie would not have already tested this if there were any doubt?

Oh, I'm certain Charlie knows one way or the other, but so far he hasn't mentioned anything about it, and even if he did, I wouldn't trust his word.

Things like that are why I add words like "seem to", and why I never assume anything is canon unless it comes directly from Rob (or other erf-teamies). Characters in stories lie, and can be mistaken, and even some rather obvious assumptions are fair game for a plot twist down the road.

There are some things I will assume are facts, to avoid annoying people with paranoid speculation (more than I already do here anyway), since the mechanics of the world itself have them as "things characters just know" when popped or needed. I said I "assume are facts", so don't yell at me later for stating them that way here. I could be wrong, and know that. :mrgreen:

1.) Scripture - when the characters talk of those books, and their contents, I don't question it. Sadly they never really quote exact wording of the contents, so that may be a matter of interpretation, and exploitable. Portal restrictions, for example.

2.) When a character "knows" a mechanic or detail. This isn't just when they say it, but when it it written in the story as something they know because of whatever makes them know stuff. Since all units pop grown up, they don't have to learn many things as they get older (heh, what's a child?).

We've seen several examples of this kind of information, like when Wanda first popped, and when Lilith knew how her gun worked without ever seeing one/being trained before. I don't think they know everything all the time, but it is more like they know it if/when they need to know it. That can be tricky too, like how Lilith seems to know a living archon can't normally go through a portal, based on her "If I get you through the portal, you are going to live. But I won't" line. I can't be sure that is a "known fact" to her or not, and even if it is, when she gets to the portal, she may "know" a decrypted can go through because it is the first time she needed to know it.

*I think Parson's bracer uses some similar pool of knowledge like that when doing calculations, since it would make it rely less on future predictions that way. Jed seems to have access to it all too, but only offers it, or suggests things, when he thinks Stanley needs to know.

3.) Seeing things happen for ourselves in the story. Seeing is believing, right? Only if we don't assume too much from it.

Unless the story presents it in a way that makes it clear it is a "known fact", assuming things can be a mistake. We can't be sure if the characters themselves are also making assumptions about things, or even spreading disinformation. The way Bea/Unaroyal ended, plus the many times characters have said non-casters will disband when entering a portal, are good enough for me to be sure it is a fact, but what that fact applies to is not so clear. We've seen exceptions with non-living stuff (and that toy soldier), so I'd love tho know exactly what the characters know, and where their information came from. I doubt I'll ever get it in writing though.

It can all lead to big headaches when overthinking stuff like that, but the story and Erf are about the mechanics, and ways to exploit them. Parson used to ask those important questions when trying to figure out the mechanics. He wanted to know specifically if units can't, rather than just don't do things, and did simulations and experiments with others all the time. Knowing what they are basing their information on is very important to him as well, and the specifics of it. The fine art of rules lawyering and exploits in games with a GM. His real world game was based on that, and his players finding a way to beat an impossible scenario using anything they can think of.

*edits* Being a Rules Lawyer is normally a bad thing, and most people hate them, and exploits. Both Parson's game and Erf seem to be based on those thing not only being acceptable, but encouraged. They are tools of the game as much as anything else, and possibly needed to win.

After all that, we are also told that the game itself allows any rule to be broken with Carnymancy, so nothing really is reliable. :P
lucidfox wrote:
Menas wrote:
As far as the army man unit that went through Charles' portal, could that specifically be referred to as a golem? I thought it was an inanimate object that was animated via dollamancy but couldn't think for itself, like a puppet basically.

Parson didn't expect the army man to be able to come back through the portal. I assume non-casters can leave the MK via portals, but not enter it. And perhaps Charlie cast a Carnymancy spell on it - something to the effect of "this unit cannot be disbanded by portals on this turn".


Thanks for the link. After reading that strip again it looks like Parson is surprised not that the unit came back through the portal, but that the unit went to the MK instead of GK because its orders were to go back to GK.
Long time reader, first time poster.

I skimmed through the thread and didn't see any discussion on Lilith's conversation with the croaked archon... considering what Lil's just been through in getting 'Corrupted' by the Arkendish and then 'Fixed' with the Arkenpliers... well... being able to speak to and hear the inanimate croaked would be something possible after that.

She was one of the archons who would've listened to Lil's speech on page 106... and she was forced to croak herself because Charlie wanted to shut Lilith up out of seemingly personal hate / fear / spite... not for the good of CharlesComm but actually for the very, VERY obviously (to her at least) bad of CharlesComm...
lloyd007 wrote:
being able to speak to and hear the inanimate croaked would be something possible

It would fit with my crazy ~mojo~ in the corpse theory.
Gorgon wrote:
lloyd007 wrote:
being able to speak to and hear the inanimate croaked would be something possible

It would fit with my crazy ~mojo~ in the corpse theory.

That could work, but I was thinking it was more 'mundane' in that the decrypted do not go to the afterlife until they are dusted because the Arkenpliers are tied to Fate and Fate is a Really Big Deal in Erfworld.

i.e. of course you didn't go to the Sky Club, Lilith, you wouldn't want to go there since when you dust and really truly leave Erfworld you get to rock out with the rest of the honored croaked / dusted of Gobwin Knob! :lol:

The thing I really get about the Arkentools is just how stupid powerful they are in pretty much all ways. Charlie with the Arkendish not only has all his tricks, he's got the archons of CharlesComm linked up like a flock of birds... which is definitely more useful and powerful than all the tricks he's shown but it's also a thing he's probably not any more conscious of than Wanda was conscious of the g-strings until Maggie showed them to her.

The irony of page 94 is intense... Wanda and Maggie crying about the 'corruption' Charlie has done to Croakamancy / Thinkamancy and then using the Pliers to commit a Titanic Act in not just freeing Lilith to act as a fugitive, but rescuing and repatriating her to Gobwin Knob while she's in the depths of CharlesComm...
Nightseraph wrote:
Its a specific breech of treaty to enter Charlescomms portal.
I don't recall the treaty specifying which side of the portal.


Why bring the treaty into this?
"Ansom, you home? Yeah, send a decrypted stabber through our portal and tell me what happens".
Though with Parson testing presumptions, I think he may have already done that before.

Sorry if it's been mentioned in some later thread, I don't read them all.