Book 2 - Page 29

Book 2 - Page 29
Comic - Book 2  Page 29
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BLANDCorporatio wrote:
She is loved by almost everyone who knows her better than a mere name (Wanda; Jack; former Ansom; Vinnie; Duncan; probably Vanna too). She is receiving the, arguably foolhardy (was she really the best ally now come on!), support of Charlie and Don. Both are putting significant resources to back her up. Even the plot favours her. Presumably, Book 2 is mostly about exploring her relationship with the many people who fawn over her, romantically/sexually/respectfully whatever.


I'm not sure Duncan should be on the list - he is her Chief Warlord, turned to her side by what could be fairly described as a powerful turnamancer after she captured him in a stunning fashion. We know he doesn't have any royal/non-royal hangups, so I suspect he is the type who has to have his admiration earned and in his eyes Jillian did it (though Charlie was the main player in that).

I doubt Vanna does, though that would be kind of funny. Heh forget Casanova, we have Jillanova here. I just hope Trem doesn't succumb.

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What had she done to deserve the support of Charlie or the Don? Oh sure she gets results now that she got the money for the Megs, the Turnamancer and the Archons, what did she do to deserve the support in the first place?


I think Charlie is easy to explain on the surface - he came to Jillian after Faq was reestablished and part of the RCCII and used her as a way into an important battle because the rest of the RCCII wouldn't/couldn't accept his help.

Don is a good question though - I'm curious as to why Jillian is such an important part of his plans. Although theoretically for a side like TV that likes to help without contributing much in the way of forces I think having a proxy like Faq could be useful.

Generally though I don't think "deserving support" is quite right. They are using her, or they think they are. Charlie did essentially say "so Jillian, I can't help but notice you aren't killing Wanda which, you know, was kind of the plan".

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You can say, so did Jillian; she's no cleverer than Stanley, but instead Fate makes her win time and again. Annoying.


I don't know. It might be the nature of this kind of medium, where shorter periods of time seem longer but for this book's in-story time has been, what, less then a couple of hours? In this one battle, in the short time Jillian has been doing anything, they have generally worked out for her (and Charlie). Prior to that over the summer updates she did well in building up her kingdom (Charlie and Don played a part in that though) and then back in book one she wasn't really on the winning side at all. Before even that in her merc days and Faq days... well, Faq was destroyed and from the sounds of things she was a good merc, but it was still hard going.
HailGreen28 wrote:
Ansom Gotti put it a lot better than I did. But to summarize: Jillian PAID FAR LESS OF A COST THAN WANDA DID. And also WITH PRACTICALLY NO PREP AND PLANNING LIKE WANDA HAD TO.


And I think a number have people have pointed out the circumstances between the two captures are quite different. Why should Jillian have paid an equal or greater cost then Wanda and why did Ansom's capture require equal or greater complex prep/planning?

Ansom's position was weaker and he was more exposed. He didn't have to be knocked out because Megalos can incapacitate so it wasn't necessary to get a powerful fighter in there to disarm him. He didn't have tons of archers with caster support, so it wasn't necessary to use magic to cover the approach so the megalos/riders weren't shot out of the sky. Megalos are good at capturing, so Jillian didn't need to get extra forces with nets in safely in order to pick him up. And he wasn't in a stack of noble warlords, plus he was on a Spidew which, thanks to its size, would keep units from closing in to protect him, so it was only necessary to eliminate the few pikers to either side so Jillian could safely land on that rather large Spider-shaped target.

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And that was barging into an infantry hex that WASN'T worn down much if even negligibly. We saw Twolls with battle damage, but JS even called off Haggar's first wave after Sammy went down. Still plenty of active and able infantry still escorting Ansom, yet Jillian Sue wins with no problem.


We don't know how great GK losses were, since the decrypted dust when they die. And yes - an infantry hex. Good for fighting other infantry, not for fighting flyers, unless archers are also present. We didn't see much in the way of missile troops (none in fact). And yes, there was still plenty of infantry - shame for Ansom he wasn't back with them when Jillian struck, he was out in front and only lightly protected by some pikers who had marshmallow whales land on them.

Plus Jillian only called Haggar off after she distracted Sammy to death and found out their objective was to dust Ansom. She'd have known how costly their attack would have been before they went in.

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HUGE difference there.


I think the huge difference that needs to be considered is the position Oss was in compared to Ansom, not the costs inflicted during the successful captures.

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And re-read Wanda's attack again. MISDIRECTION: Wanda actually used misdirection, with Jack making it appear the attack was AWAY from where Ossomer was. With the displacement illusion. Meanwhile Jillian Sue used NO MISDIRECTION OF ANY KIND. She just barreled in a frontal assault, using her units as a meat shield in front of her similar to her attack on Stanley in the mountain gap. Ansom flatly called out that Jillian's fliers were "ENGAGING", so no misdirection or even subtlety there.


Why is misdirection or subtlety important or necessary here? Or that Jillian doesn't have it sign of... well, not good things? Wanda needed misdirection because they'd have been shot to pieces if they'd attacked without it and Oss and his warlords would have been on guard.

Jillian had the freedom to be direct. She's told Ansom is signaling, can see he is out in the open - she tells two megalo riders to hit the pikers on either side of Ansom spidew so she can safely grab him. Now complex plans are very nice, I like seeing them, but simple plans come up with on the spot when a character sees an opening are also nice. They can show initiative and quick thinking.

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I would love to see Ansom or another high level character burst OUT of a Mego-Gwiff in that situation. Like an Alien Chestburster, LOL.


That would be pretty funny. I am wondering what Ansom was signaling Jillian for - I guess he could have been planning to preach toolism at her, but maybe he has a plan. Maybe he would have surrendered in order to get a bit closer to Wanda/Trem...

Well, I guess we'll wait and see.

Watsit Hoohow wrote:
Frankly, I'm a little troubled at the ramifications of it being so easy to just capture an enemy warlord like that. No casualties, minor-to-moderate (and the latter's a bit of a stretch) damage, etc.


I think Chief Warlords are usually in a better position then this. BfGK at least Parson was safely inside the whole time, Oss was tucked away with his forces, Ansom is usually on his carpet or with his men. Plus only one side has Megalogwiff we know of, and for 700 turns hasn't been producing. Plus it for as long as we have known been fairly small.

Of course as I have been saying circumstances matter. The two times we have seen Jillian pull off a capture like this the warlords have been in bad positions. With Duncan it looks like capturing him was always the plan - get him in the open with a parley request and when he is unprotected nab him. With Ansom it looks like she saw an opening where he was exposed and took it.

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Now their biggest warlord is out of the game. Something about that just doesn't jive for fairness. Sure, GK was lacking archers, but we've yet to see anything that causes legitimate damage to Megalo's.


I imagine certain flyers could. We know Wanda was going to be able to defeat them if it came to a fight. And they probably can't engulf a flyer like they do with someone on the ground.

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Those things have spears in them like a pincushion (and I'm going to assume here that Spears are just as good as arrows for damage here) and the worst of it is only that one of them seems to be crying. Some archers here or there don't seem like they'd make a difference.


Well their riders, like a dwagons rider, are probably a lot more fragile. Take Jack for example - his dwagon wasn't really hurt, he was.
Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
And I think a number have people have pointed out the circumstances between the two captures are quite different. Why should Jillian have paid an equal or greater cost then Wanda and why did Ansom's capture require equal or greater complex prep/planning?

Ansom's position was weaker and he was more exposed. He didn't have to be knocked out because Megalos can incapacitate so it wasn't necessary to get a powerful fighter in there to disarm him. He didn't have tons of archers with caster support, so it wasn't necessary to use magic to cover the approach so the megalos/riders weren't shot out of the sky. Megalos are good at capturing, so Jillian didn't need to get extra forces with nets in safely in order to pick him up. And he wasn't in a stack of noble warlords, plus he was on a Spidew which, thanks to its size, would keep units from closing in to protect him, so it was only necessary to eliminate the few pikers to either side so Jillian could safely land on that rather large Spider-shaped target.

We don't know how great GK losses were, since the decrypted dust when they die. And yes - an infantry hex. Good for fighting other infantry, not for fighting flyers, unless archers are also present. We didn't see much in the way of missile troops (none in fact). And yes, there was still plenty of infantry - shame for Ansom he wasn't back with them when Jillian struck, he was out in front and only lightly protected by some pikers who had marshmallow whales land on them.

Plus Jillian only called Haggar off after she distracted Sammy to death and found out their objective was to dust Ansom. She'd have known how costly their attack would have been before they went in.
I'm just saying that due to plot or circumstance, Wanda had to work harder, to plan in advance more, to capture her target, than Jillian did.

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
Why is misdirection or subtlety important or necessary here? Or that Jillian doesn't have it sign of... well, not good things? Wanda needed misdirection because they'd have been shot to pieces if they'd attacked without it and Oss and his warlords would have been on guard.

Jillian had the freedom to be direct. She's told Ansom is signaling, can see he is out in the open - she tells two megalo riders to hit the pikers on either side of Ansom spidew so she can safely grab him. Now complex plans are very nice, I like seeing them, but simple plans come up with on the spot when a character sees an opening are also nice. They can show initiative and quick thinking.
The subtlety was necessary for Wanda, not for Jillian. We can debate how much the deck was stacked in Jillian Sue's favor by plot, or by circumstance. But either way Jillian got her target with less preparation and cost than Wanda did. With the self-congratulations afterward. "Direct? That's what I said!" Ugh.

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That would be pretty funny. I am wondering what Ansom was signaling Jillian for - I guess he could have been planning to preach toolism at her, but maybe he has a plan. Maybe he would have surrendered in order to get a bit closer to Wanda/Trem...

Well, I guess we'll wait and see.
Intentional or not, getting captured saved Ansom. He went from being dead meat, to being under Jillian's protection.
Lamech wrote:
Yeah Parson made the tactic, likely in the battle sims with Jack. They didn't come up with it on the spot, and they already knew about it. So it was canned. One of Jillians warlords or perhaps Jillian might have come up with a similar tactic.
"They" didn't already know about it. Ansom had to have it explained to him. Wanda appeared to know the basics, but Jack had to suggest to her they needed a displacement on top of what they were already thinking. How can a tactic that not every warlord in the same hex/side knows, that your own side came up with, that has to be modified on the spot, be considered a canned tactic?

Maybe we're quibbling over semantics. What defines a canned tactic? I think it's a tactic used over and over again by the same unit, even in different situations. Where it becomes routine for that unit. Example: "Look, Jillian Sue is using her units as a meat shield again. Such a canned tactic!" What do you consider a canned tactic?

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Panel 8 units of Jillian are attacking the infantry protecting Ansom. In the attack on Ossomer archons attacked the units protecting Ossomer. In both cases the units were presumably neutralized. Jillian had to let her mount take damage, soo... what is the big differance? And I can describe Wanda's attack as "sucker punching it so it could be scrapped of the ground."
The difference is that Jillian Sue could just barge in and take what she wanted, without having to pay the cost Wanda did. Even with Wanda throwing the sucker-punch.

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Third to last panel: Jillian is flanked by two riderless megaglowiffs. In just about every case we've seen were we could actually make out that kind of detail the megaglowiffs, have had riders.
There's a dot/figure over every Mego-Gwiff in that panel. In about the same detail for the focus available in the last panel. Even the crying Mego-Gwiff has something on it. Might be a disabled/croaked/or perfectly healthy warlord, but there's something on it, like all the others in the panel.
There's a ton of stuff to respond to, and I will get to that eventually but for now-
doran wrote:
The real question you should be asking is whether Jillian's capture of Ansom was morally justified?
:P


Of course not! She croaked Teawy The Spidew! Vengeance!!!!111
BLANDCorporatio wrote:
There's a ton of stuff to respond to, and I will get to that eventually but for now-
doran wrote:
The real question you should be asking is whether Jillian's capture of Ansom was morally justified?
:P


Of course not! She croaked Teawy The Spidew! Vengeance!!!!111

I couldn't disagree more. You start the debate; I'll get the popcorn.

Oh, yes, the whole "on topic" portion of my post... I find it interesting that Vanna couldn't decrypt Ansom from range... I'm sure Vanna/Jillian/Ansom in the dungeon will lead to some interesting strips in the upcoming weeks/months.
You know, I really can't complain about this turn of events. It just advanced the plot with little talky. I guess we could have spent 3 or 4 strips having a battle where Ansom's capture becomes more and more plausible, but the outcome would have been the same and it would take a month of updates.
HailGreen28 wrote:
I'm just saying that due to plot or circumstance, Wanda had to work harder, to plan in advance more, to capture her target, than Jillian did.


On that we are in agreement. My view is that it just doesn't reflect badly on Jillian that she could go for a less complex, more direct capture with theoretically fewer losses because the situation was there for it to work. All this talk of the price Wanda paid... well, due to circumstances there was no reasonable reason Jillian should have to have paid such a price.

I guess the debate, as you say below, is on deck stacking.

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The subtlety was necessary for Wanda, not for Jillian. We can debate how much the deck was stacked in Jillian Sue's favor by plot, or by circumstance. But either way Jillian got her target with less preparation and cost than Wanda did. With the self-congratulations afterward. "Direct? That's what I said!" Ugh.


Well, it is the story. There are going to be times things are in favor or one side or the other. Wanda left Ansom behind, Ansom made do with the forces he had, it wasn't enough, he got captured by a force capable of taking advantage of his situation.

That's really all I am saying. All this "but Jillian lost less then Wanda even with less planning" is largely meaningless since the two situations were very different and the losses incurred were in line with that. And why, with a bit more luck Wanda could have gotten out without Jack injured or an Archon lost. That was just the way the arrows fell.
Altima wrote:
Linking does require a Thinkamancer. Are people discussing that it doesn't? The only time we're shown it might possibly be done without is when the Kingsworld spell was cast--and it's been heavily implied that the reason there weren't any casters there is because she was linked with Charlie and his Arkendish. After all, the spell drained Vanna's juice for two turns (though she strangely had enough left to 'try' to turn Ansom, but I suppose it's possible because Jillian told her to).

It's also possible that a Master-class Thinkamancer may be able to do long-range links (remember, Maggie's 'only' an Adept class).
I think the confusion might have been because people were speculating about "Croakamancer-Healomancer" and "Croakamancer-Turnmancer" linkups, without explicitly mentioning the Thinkamancer doing the linking. In my mind, the Thinkamancer is implicit -- much like bread is implicit when people outside of Erf talk about PB&J or BLT sandwiches. It's not explicitly mentioned in either sandwich's name, but we all know it's there. Of course, I also think the Jillian/Mary Sue debate is going to continue until well after she's been croaked, decrypted, and croaked again (or Erfworld ends, whichever's first), so there you go.
HailGreen28 wrote:
"They" didn't already know about it. Ansom had to have it explained to him. Wanda appeared to know the basics, but Jack had to suggest to her they needed a displacement on top of what they were already thinking. How can a tactic that not every warlord in the same hex/side knows, that your own side came up with, that has to be modified on the spot, be considered a canned tactic?

Maybe we're quibbling over semantics. What defines a canned tactic? I think it's a tactic used over and over again by the same unit, even in different situations. Where it becomes routine for that unit. Example: "Look, Jillian Sue is using her units as a meat shield again. Such a canned tactic!" What do you consider a canned tactic?
Yup, totally arguing over semantics.