Book 2 - Page 21

Book 2 - Page 21

Comic - Book 2 – Page 21

Recent posts... (See full thread)
Oberon wrote:

On a different subject, it just occurred to me that Jack just died. When Wanda was injured to the point of incapacitation, it was said that without healing magic before the Jetstone turn (the active turn in which she was injured) ended that she would die. Jack was similarly injured to the point of incapacitation, and he wasn't healed, or he'd be with the fliers now. And the GK turn just ended. So Jack is dead. RIP Jack.


Um, no. Jack was shown being healed and later shown with the fliers.
Oberon wrote:
This is simply not even close to being correct. Firstly, Vanna the turnamancer just cast Time Warp while it was not her turn. Remember that? :) The volcano was uncroaked out of turn also. Several casters have been seen casting defensive magics out of turn, not just thinkagrams. It happens all the time, I'm surprised anyone holds to the supposed restriction anymore. It just isn't correct, even as retro-actively justified by the author, and it would take a half page of exceptions and mitigating circumstances to allow the amount of casting out of turn that we have seen.


Although in most of these cases isn't it seen as allowed since there was enemy action in the same hex? Just like all those Jetstone archers firing on the GK forces even though it isn't their turn.

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I've given counter arguments previously to why it is indeed game breaking. And I see no reason why anyone would think that it is a purely defensive tactic. Vanna cast the spell on an entire side, no matter where they were, how far they were from her, and what activities they were engaged in. I see no reason to invent limitations such as "the enemy must attack the hex with the caster." There was no fighting going on, remember? It was a parley.


Enemy units were in the hex and the parley was over. Jillian told Wanda she'd go and stay out of the fight, she just needed to talk to her caster first. Wanda said ok, go talk to your caster and then stay out of the fight. Parley completed.

Well, unless Jillian was meant to go back to Wanda and tell her she had spoken to her caster and was now staying out of the fight. Of course nothing seems to suggest parleys protect either side against shenanigans from the other - Jillian got Duncan by making him think she was coming down to parlay with him, with the giants then switching to a side whose turn it was from a side whose turn it wasn't.

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On a different subject, it just occurred to me that Jack just died. When Wanda was injured to the point of incapacitation, it was said that without healing magic before the Jetstone turn (the active turn in which she was injured) ended that she would die. Jack was similarly injured to the point of incapacitation, and he wasn't healed, or he'd be with the fliers now. And the GK turn just ended. So Jack is dead. RIP Jack.


No, Jack is fine for the time being. Wanda wanted to let him die and Stanley shut her down, he got healed and he is on a purple dwagon as we speak.

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The author of Erfworld, however, has chosen to keep most of the rules of magic his own secret, while also showing them to be very potent. And this does not allow for the readers to accept a great many things that the casters do as being natural and expected consequences of either the way that the laws of magic have been explained, or of the natural limitations revealed by the way the characters use their magic. Instead we have the worst combination: Potent magic which are hugely plot impacting but also almost entirely unexplained. Or worse yet, explained poorly or inaccurately or incompletely.


I agree a magical setting can have DEM. I don't think this is an example of a DEM. A caster type known to be able to effect turns effects a turn on a scale likely only achievable through a link up?

Link ups which enable the component casters to access spells relevant to their field but of far greater power/reach then normal (or even to almost merge two disciplines temporarily) which have also been revealed from early on?

And I don't think the magic rules are being kept a secret, just shown to us bit by bit as they are naturally displayed in the story, rather then via a massive info dump outlining what magic can and can't do. Is there any reason for us to have known what a turnamancer could do in a link up before one actually occurs in the story? Considering as well link ups aren't the most common things it should also be unexpected to the characters in the story, maybe. Would a warlord, or even ruler, necessarily know what a dirt/thought/croak link up could be used for off the top of their head, since they don't appear all that common?

And considering the number of magical disciplines, levels and possible link up combinations that is a lot of rules. Unless you mean universal rules, like magic runs on juice and when spells can/can't be cast. But again I'm not sure how that would relate to this spell, unless one of them was there is no magical way of affecting a sides turn.
To end all this confusion:

You cannot cast outside of your side's turn, with two exceptions:
1) You can cast if there are enemy units in your hex. The enemy units need not be engaged in combat, they just have to be in your hex.
2) Communications (e.g. thinkagrams, hat magic messages) can be cast at any time.

Every instance of casting in the comic so far has obeyed this rule.
josh wrote:
Wow. This post clearly has a lot of people worked up. Well, here's my two cents:

First of all, I liked this post! It featured an excited and unexpected event, and yet in retrospect was foreshadowed slightly. It leaves the reader wondering what will happen next. It shows that unpredictable things can happen in Erfworld, and that's good, it keeps things tense...So let's just lean back and enjoy the ride, hey? :)


I second what Josh said. Just because this is a big and unexpected event doesn't make it wrong--the whole point was to shock and turn the tables a bit, leaving us wondering what happens next. Obviously, the world's rules have to be consistent or it becomes hard to suspend disbelief, but I don't think the sudden turn ending does that. It clearly took all the turnamancer's power, we have no idea what Charlie had to put into it. Anyway, there are lots of games with very dramatic events like that, some balanced, some not. More importantly, Erfworld is not a game. It's not even a game-like world! Its a story.
It's less of a shocker when you read the book from page 1, as the pacing then is what it would be if you were reading this thing as a whole instead of serialized like this.

When you're waiting and speculating and theorizing for a month before the event actually happens, of course you reaction is going to be different.
sheepfly wrote:
But this hardly changes anything. Opposing forces are still in the Jetstone hex, and we're not likely to see a repeat of the lake-hex 'wait for the slash-happy madwoman to move on' incident.


I think it might. Wanda is now basically bent over a barrel, but Jillian also doesn't want to see anything untoward happen to her. My prediction: Jillian will now again offer allow Wanda to turn to Faq after revealing that she is working with Charlie. The alternative will be that Wanda's fate ends on Jetstone's turn, as both Jetstone and Charlie will be eager to croak her.

If Wanda does take the offer, it'll result in a three way battle: GK vs. Jetstone vs. Charlie/Faq. Yeah, that'll be a real battlefield then. However, I expect the foreshadowing we've seen indicates that Wanda will fight and Parson will pull her boop out of the fire. I think my idea makes a bit more sense, though.
Oberon wrote:
The author of Erfworld, however, has chosen to keep most of the rules of magic his own secret, while also showing them to be very potent. And this does not allow for the readers to accept a great many things that the casters do as being natural and expected consequences of either the way that the laws of magic have been explained, or of the natural limitations revealed by the way the characters use their magic. Instead we have the worst combination: Potent magic which are hugely plot impacting but also almost entirely unexplained. Or worse yet, explained poorly or inaccurately or incompletely.

This tends to lead, demonstrably I think anyone reading even just this reaction page must agree, to the confusion of the reader and a failure by the author to suspend the disbelief of the reader. What the reader is being asked to accept is that since nothing (very, very little) is known about the limits of magic that it's cool for magic to do anything at all and that this makes it plausible. And that could not be further from the truth.


Must agree? I disagree! :D I don't feel the least bit confused, and haven't the least bit difficultly suspending my disbelief. I must have a special handicap. ;)

I get what you're saying actually, I just don't agree that this is necessarily the case. If you were to say "it is my preference to have a system (or story) where magic either follows well explained rules or is only window dressing", then I can accept that. I *do* think stories with well-explained magic systems are interesting. I *also* think that stories with no such explanations can be just as interesting, for different reasons. By your logic, we'd better toss aside most Brothers Grimm tales as being implausible trash. Same goes for... well pretty much most fantasy stories that predate the last 50 years or so.

Some fantasy stories are based on a clearly-defined magic system, and are enjoyable because we can predict what will happen next. As such, they become "mysteries" for us to solve. They satisfy the viewer by making him feel happy about their success at correctly guessing what will happen, and by engaging the reader in such mental guesswork, involving them in the action.
Other fantasy stories provide no explanations at all for their magic. They're enjoyable because of the (excuse the term) "magical" element of feeling that anything is possible, and *because* they are less predictable. The audience in this case isn't able to predict things to come as easily (if at all), but the payoff comes in the wonder of seeing things that ARE new and unpredictable.

Most fantasies are a mix of both techniques. Some people prefer one style, others prefer the other. Some (like myself) enjoy both. A style isn't RIGHT because it suits our taste, it simply is one that appeals to us. (That said, I understand - the normal human reaction to anything is to assume that everyone else is like us, and thus if we like or dislike a thing, everyone else must be doing the same.)
Alexei P wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:

I think one tip off that this is not a normal Turnamancer trick would be Parson's calculation.
He was giving wanda a range on her chances of victory, a range which was largely dependent on the unknown caster... meaning his bracer likely would have taken into the possibility of a masterclass turnamancer...


Ah, but the bracer never actually predicted 100% odds. Seventy to ninety percent doesn't mean no chance of defeat. The idea that they'd destroy the tower and be back before breakfast was all Wanda's personal assumption.

@MarbitChow: very true indeed.


Indeed. And I also don't think Parson's calc would have taken into account Wanda parleying first rather then going straight for the tower, nor her giving a caster the time to cast a big spell.

Dr Pepper wrote:
My prediction: Wanda has an extra trick of her own in reserve. It won't counteract the effect of the End Turn spell, but it will greatly reduce the advantage the RCC just gained.


Maybe. I guess she does have Jack there (and Sylvia)... maybe we will see some new ability from the pliers.

Of course I don't think it should pull back to much momentum from Jetstone this turn at least. Wanda shouldn't have been prepared for something like this, Charlie and Jillian got one over them this time.
MonteCristo wrote:
I think one tip off that this is not a normal Turnamancer trick would be Parson's calculation.
He was giving wanda a range on her chances of victory, a range which was largely dependent on the unknown caster... meaning his bracer likely would have taken into the possibility of a masterclass turnamancer...

However, what the bracer would not consider is something like a long range link up by the arkendish to augment the turnamancer's power... Unfortunately for Wanda, Parson did not take charlie (or any other unknown elements) into account when he calculated Wanda's chances of victory

While I agree that something like the Linkup wouldn't/couldn't be in Parson's calculation (the caster wasn't, before he knew there was one), I also don't think that the bracer's calculation has anything to do with the current situation. He asked about rushing the tower and razing it. Instead, Wanda stopped in the airspace to parley.

She should've asked what the odds were that Jillian would turn. But she didn't want to know.
Oberon wrote:

On a different subject, it just occurred to me that Jack just died. When Wanda was injured to the point of incapacitation, it was said that without healing magic before the Jetstone turn (the active turn in which she was injured) ended that she would die. Jack was similarly injured to the point of incapacitation, and he wasn't healed, or he'd be with the fliers now. And the GK turn just ended. So Jack is dead. RIP Jack.


Jack was healed. He was with the fliers. Take a better look at the panels. He is there, and healed. He is functional.