Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

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0beron wrote:
There is absolutely no basis for the idea that diminishing schmuckers is dependent on the total combined levels of your cities, this is simply an old theory that someone may have suggested before sufficient evidence arose, and has persisted falsely. Jillian specifically reacted to the NUMBER of cities Haffaton had, without hearing anything about their levels. Moreover, the idea is also counter-intuitive because if that were true, sides would never want to upgrade cities.

Otherwise I agree with you, even if income drops to 0, there should be enough farms to sustain Wanda as the only upkeep-needed unit. Assuming of course that food can totally replace the cost of upkeep, which is an assumption we can probably make safely, but one for which there is not actually evidence.

Actually... http://www.erfworld.com/2012/03/inner-p ... isode-028/
Quote:

After a certain number of city levels per side, the Shmuckers each city produced would begin to decline.

However, I was wrong in thinking that income would not go down. The given statement by Jillian could mean that city income goes to 0, infinity or some "cap" as number of cities goes to infinity.

Hmm... actually you CAN pay for upkeep with nothing but rations if you are a fugitive. (And possibly when you are not, but we don't technically know.)
Whuuuuuu? I swear Rob must have made that as a minor edit within a few hours of it first being published because that is exactly the reference I was thinking of and I don't recall it saying anything of the kind. Interesting, I stand corrected on that point.

As for Wanda and rations, yes we have already observed that Fugitives can sustain themselves entirely on food. Whether the same remains true for standard units is technically unknown.
0beron wrote:
Moreover, the idea is also counter-intuitive because if that were true, sides would never want to upgrade cities.
Now that we've established that diminishing shmuckers really does result from the sum of the levels of the cities, we're left to figure out why sides would want to upgrade cities. I think the most obvious explanation is that the size and value of the city is not directly proportional to the level, so a single level 2 city is probably more than twice as big as a level 1 city, and produces more shmuckers and units than two level 1 cities. I think this also fits with the fact that there are only 5 levels of city to cover everything from the very smallest outposts to the very biggest cities, and I find it hard to believe that the very biggest cities are just five tiny outposts clustered together.

I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that the size of the city is exponential in its level, though. It could just as well explain the value of upgrading cities if city value went up quadratically, and that would make a lot of sense because then the level of a city would directly proportional to the distance between the tower and the outer wall. We would need images of cities with various levels in order to figure out how it actually works in detail, but as far as I'm aware that doesn't exist yet.
Lilwik wrote:
Now that we've established that diminishing shmuckers really does result from the sum of the levels of the cities, we're left to figure out why sides would want to upgrade cities. I think the most obvious explanation is that the size and value of the city is not directly proportional to the level, so a single level 2 city is probably more than twice as big as a level 1 city, and produces more shmuckers and units than two level 1 cities.

Well, it's certainly true that a level 2 city produces more units than a level 1 city you have and a level 1 city you don't, and each Side's territory only has a limited number of city sites. We don't know if upgraded cities would be a feature of a competition-free Erfworld.
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
Well, it's certainly true that a level 2 city produces more units than a level 1 city you have and a level 1 city you don't, and each Side's territory only has a limited number of city sites. We don't know if upgraded cities would be a feature of a competition-free Erfworld.
That's true, but consider Haffaton. That was a side that clearly had plentiful city levels, so much so that they weren't even defending many of their cities, like Diecast (Episode 36), Goodminton (Episode 47) and even Efbaum. Surely by the time Haffaton was destroyed it had long ago stopped expanding and level 2 cities still produce more shmuckers than level 1 cities so there would be little reason to downgrade the cities at that point, but why would they have any level 2 cities like Diecast and Goodminton? When they were still expanding they must have been aware of how they were pushing against diminishing shmuckers, so if two level 1s are just as good as one level 2, I would expect them to make a level 1 out of each city that they conquer before moving on to the next city. These cities were only defended by a handful of units, and that few units could surely live quite comfortably in a level 1 city, and then Haffaton could expand far further before running into shmucker problems. It seems like level 2 is somehow optimal for near-empty cities, even though it contributes twice as much to causing diminishing shmuckers.
Their having L2 cities suggests that:
1) the income doesn't drop to exactly zero, so more is always better, and they were in the middle of a slow-paced upgrading scheme
2) they weren't thinking optimally
or
3) there are both potentially large resource multipliers on city cites, and site-based level caps
or
something I haven't thought of
drachefly wrote:
Their having L2 cities suggests that:
1) the income doesn't drop to exactly zero, so more is always better, and they were in the middle of a slow-paced upgrading scheme
2) they weren't thinking optimally
or
3) there are both potentially large resource multipliers on city cites, and site-based level caps
or
something I haven't thought of

4) Razing and rebuilding would have replaced the unit types produced by Diecast and Goodminton with the standard Haffaton unit types. If there is no way to recover shmuckers from a city except by razing it, and if Haffaton wanted those unit types, they may have seen keeping the cities at level 2 as a necessary evil.
5) There may not be any way to profit from downgrading a level 2 city, if razing a level 2 doesn't recover enough shmuckers to build a level 1.
6) Higher level cities can produce more powerful unit types than lower-level cities. This klog notes that "big cities" can produce warlords, and the Dwagon wiki page claims that only the GK cities that are level 3 or above can pop them.
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
4) Razing and rebuilding would have replaced the unit types produced by Diecast and Goodminton with the standard Haffaton unit types. If there is no way to recover shmuckers from a city except by razing it, and if Haffaton wanted those unit types, they may have seen keeping the cities at level 2 as a necessary evil.
It seems unlikely that those cities were producing units since they were practically deserted. It's possible that downgrading a city doesn't recover shmuckers, but it wouldn't require razing the city, so the units available to the city wouldn't change, except of course that the level 1 city couldn't produce everything that it could at level 2. If they're not actually producing units there, then all they could value is the potential to produce those units, and they would still have that because they could always upgrade the city.
There is a simple explanation to why Haffaton hadn't downgraded it's cities past level 2. There are 2 competing factors income & defence... from memory (not going to try to find the relevant quote but I'm sure it's out there) level 1 cities are open... no walls. Level 2 cities are the one with some sort of barrier to movement so although Haffaton wasn't actively defending it's cities it left them with enough static defence, that it could afford, to prevent rendomly popping barbarians walking in and taking over. Probably it's hope was that they would have to siege and that would give them time to either pop a defence force or get one on scene. Jillian negated this with her air move which ignored walls.
I've enjoyed the side stories, but I can't believe that it really has been over half a year since the epilogue of the last book :(