Book 2 - Page 87

Book 2 - Page 87
Comic - Book 2  Page 87
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Since I think the forum community has worried at the chief warlord problem until the bloody marrow is showing and has little to show for it, let me introduce a new thing for you to all chew on.

It's about Bunny. Now, you all know about this 'secret war' going on now. And we also know that in general Thinkamancers tend to have a very easy time communicating with each other.

And then there is her unusual insistance on only speaking through her thinkamancy.

I think she's involved in the secret war... on Charlie's side.

Think about it. She's got her head in a G-string almost constantly, waiting to be tapped by Charlie. Either she's totally oblivious to her discipline's politics, or she's providing him with a free information link as often as she can. Before you claim that's against duty, let me point out Maggie is well capable of manipulating and lying to her own side to further secret goals.

And then there is that curious symbol we saw her wearing that was like the GMTTA but colored wrong...
*logs in dusty account*

@The Slately double discussion: I think it might also be possible that Clonely might "decay" similarly to an uncroaked. Not thinking corpse-like decay, but maybe as time passes, doubles' intelligence and abilities starts to decrease, maybe their signamancy fade in some way or another too, and after a while they are a useless, weak, dumb-as-a-brick unit which finally disbands.

Just a thought.

That would be pretty heart-breaking to see for Jetstone, too.
junovalkyrie wrote:

Quote:
What I was pointing out is that there's not a single evidence that it costs smuckers, and we have plenty of examples of cash-strapped sides doing it whitout trouble while extra-rich GK can't.


We have plenty of examples of cash-strapped sides promoting a new CWL when their current CWL was present on their side (i.e. neither croaked, nor captured, nor turned)? Because if not, that doesn't support either of our positions over the other.

We have Jillian's case, more on that later.

junovalkyrie wrote:

Quote:
b)Please, this is Hamster we're talking about. He ordered harvesting of dwagons (Stanley's favorite units), spends money like crazy promoting units to heavies and then runs into the MK with the chance of creating a lethal feud with hundreds of casters. He stopped caring about politics long ago if he ever did. If money was the only limitation, he would've simply asked Maggie if there was any chance for magic backslash, if yes then how to mitigate it and then talked with Stanley about geting a new CWL.


Because Stanley has shown himself to be a man who is capable of being reasoned with.

He was reasoned in trying to summon the perfect Warlord for a small fortune, dwagon-farming, mining gemstones to make his side rich, shall I continue?

junovalkyrie wrote:

Edit: To clarify: it's one thing to take initiative in your position as CWL. That's something that, based on what we know about the Suggestion spell, could be easily rationalized away by Stanley as "well, I appointed him CWL and he's proven himself capable in the past, I'm sure he knows what he's doing", especially given the cognitive dissonance involved in keeping around a 1,000 Schmucker-per-turn unit without making use of him.

No use? Hamster has been given plenty of use in the capital, playing the role of long-distance advisor to the frontline troops, researching how Erfworld works (did you know dwagons can't fly with heavies?) and coming up with stuff like safe dwagon-farming.

junovalkyrie wrote:

It's another thing altogether to essentially say to your ruler (who has shown himself to be insecure and emotionally immature and, oh BTW, only promoted you under a fragile form of magical coercion that may put a friend under risk if he becomes aware of or breaks it), "you made the wrong choice and we need to correct it ASAP".

Call Stanley insecure and emotinally immature all you want, he's still the ruler who gathered a top quality retinue of advisors, keeps his sides finances top-notch and has more arkentools under his command than anybody else.

And he wouldn't have to say he made the wrong choice. He would've just needed to say something along the lines of "I found a loophole that can get us out of this mess, you just need now to promote a CWL on the frontline".

junovalkyrie wrote:

Quote:
c)That actually supports my point. Those promotions are explicitly stated to cost smuckers. Promoting to CWL is never stated to cost smuckers,even if we've seen it happen several times on the comic. Even when the hobgobwins are promoted, Stanley mentally notes the money that is costing him. He never does so when he chooses a new CWL.


a) And I repeat: "We have plenty of examples of cash-strapped sides promoting a new CWL when their current CWL was still present on their side (i.e. neither croaked, nor captured, nor turned)? Because if not, that doesn't support either of our positions over the other."

Jillian FTW!

junovalkyrie wrote:

b) Keeping a) in mind, saying that the Schmucker cost involved in other promotions supports your point strikes me as analogous to saying, "I've pressed the first three levers and gotten shocked each time. I have no explicit proof that pressing the fourth lever will shock me, so it probably won't."

Considering the three first levers had warnings that it would shock me, and the fourth doesn't, then yes I'm feeling confident on my odds.

junovalkyrie wrote:

Quote:
Say hello to Jillian "I don't care what anyone else thinks about me", that despite being with skintight finances goes around changing her CWL in whims (oh, shiny new guy, promote him to CWL!). Her current troops never seemed particularly enthusiastic with her ruler.


When was it stated that Jillian had another CWL that needed to be demoted for Duncan to be made CWL?

Because Jillian nominated a CWL as soon as she had her first batch of warlords. Then she captured the lv6 dude whitout any casualities on her side. Then she promoted him. Nowhere was it said her first CWL ever bited it, which means he had to be demoted to make room for the new one.

junovalkyrie wrote:

And that's my point. This is exactly as complex a rule as

No CWL on side at present -> no Schmucker cost to promote a new one
CWL on side at present -> Schmucker cost to promote a new one

And yet you dismissed the latter as an "extremely complex algorithm". Either you were being intellectually dishonest, exaggerating my position to make it sound absurd, or you misunderstood my position in the first place. (And I'll admit, it's probably my fault in the latter case. I'm not great at communicating in English.)

What you're missing is that GK has LOTS of money. Yet they can't do it.
Jillian barely has enough to feed her troops. And she changes CWLs on whims.

There's no visible correlation whatsoever between a side's treasury and their ability to switch CWLs. Thus the cost has to be something else.

junovalkyrie wrote:

Quote:
That's why Don would rather send Caesar into suicide missions than simple demote him. If he did so, his side would take yet another major moral penalty, but a CWL falling in combat is an "honorable" death.


Alternatively, since his side is cash-strapped, he cannot afford to promote a new CWL while the current one is still around.

He can afford to send his warlords and troops in suicide missions just for the sake of status, so he can't be that cash-strapped (he had enough left to make a substancial loan to Jetstone after all).

junovalkyrie wrote:

P.S. While it may seem like I'm a major proponent of the Schmucker-cost position, I only think it's slightly more likely, on the basis of such a Schmuckers being involved in every other promotion we have information about the cost of. The morale-cost position (or some combination of both) seems quite viable as well. I'm mainly arguing because it seemed like you were misunderstanding/misrepresenting my position (in the previous post) and interpreting ambiguous evidence as supporting yours (in this post).


And yet again I point at Jillian, who shows the other side of the scale by changing CWLs despite barely having money to sustain her side. It's a key point on my side, that you seem to purposedly ignore just because.
oslecamo2_temp wrote:
Say hello to Jillian "I don't care what anyone else thinks about me", that despite being with skintight finances goes around changing her CWL in whims (oh, shiny new guy, promote him to CWL!).
Wait, what? Jillian promoted Duncan after turning him. Not on a whim, but because her newly reconstituted FAQ only had low level warlords, and Duncan was a respectable level 6. And that's assuming that she even had a CWL before Duncan, but I'd assume that even a level 1 is better than none at all. This doesn't seem at all like a whim to me, but a solid strategic decision which is best for the side. When else has she changed her CWL?
Agreeing with Oberon. Jillian's promotion of a Level 6 to CWL would be worth a substantial cost.
CelebrenIthil wrote:
*logs in dusty account*

@The Slately double discussion: I think it might also be possible that Clonely might "decay" similarly to an uncroaked. Not thinking corpse-like decay, but maybe as time passes, doubles' intelligence and abilities starts to decrease, maybe their signamancy fade in some way or another too, and after a while they are a useless, weak, dumb-as-a-brick unit which finally disbands.


Alzheimers is pretty unsettling when you knew the person at full glory. I don't even want to speculate how terrifying it would be to see it develop in someone who can end you and all of your loved ones with a paranoid thought.

On a happier note, welcome back!
I don't see anything in the archives indicating that she named one of her warlords Chief before Duncan. I'm not saying she hadn't; that would be a logical assumption. But it's entirely possible she chose not to do so, too.

And I agree that changing your CWL from a level 2 to a level 6 is almost certainly worth the unknown-to-us cost. Especially if the cost depends on the level of your current CWL.
jkosta wrote:
I don't see anything in the archives indicating that she named one of her warlords Chief before Duncan. I'm not saying she hadn't; that would be a logical assumption. But it's entirely possible she chose not to do so, too.

And I agree that changing your CWL from a level 2 to a level 6 is almost certainly worth the unknown-to-us cost. Especially if the cost depends on the level of your current CWL.

And if you just got a large lump sum of Schmuckers from raiding an enemy city.
Its possible that naming chief warlord has some sort of cool down. So a poor side can name a new CW, without spending too much cash, but they cannot switch them at will.
oslecamo2_temp wrote:
junovalkyrie wrote:

Edit: To clarify: it's one thing to take initiative in your position as CWL. That's something that, based on what we know about the Suggestion spell, could be easily rationalized away by Stanley as "well, I appointed him CWL and he's proven himself capable in the past, I'm sure he knows what he's doing", especially given the cognitive dissonance involved in keeping around a 1,000 Schmucker-per-turn unit without making use of him.
No use? Hamster has been given plenty of use in the capital, playing the role of long-distance advisor to the frontline troops, researching how Erfworld works (did you know dwagons can't fly with heavies?) and coming up with stuff like safe dwagon-farming.

And what among these is obviously useful in Stanley's eyes?


oslecamo2_temp wrote:
junovalkyrie wrote:

It's another thing altogether to essentially say to your ruler (who has shown himself to be insecure and emotionally immature and, oh BTW, only promoted you under a fragile form of magical coercion that may put a friend under risk if he becomes aware of or breaks it), "you made the wrong choice and we need to correct it ASAP".
Call Stanley insecure and emotinally immature all you want, he's still the ruler who gathered a top quality retinue of advisors, keeps his sides finances top-notch and has more arkentools under his command than anybody else.

And he wouldn't have to say he made the wrong choice. He would've just needed to say something along the lines of "I found a loophole that can get us out of this mess, you just need now to promote a CWL on the frontline".

But merely questioning his decision is implying that he made the wrong choice.

Besides, him changing his mind would snap any suggestion spell that remains over him. And Maggie would have no choice but to take all the backlash onto herself. When she gets hit, even if she survives Stanley would notice her incapacitation, and order her to tell him what's going on. When he finds out Maggie used a suggestion spell on him, he'll disband her on the spot.