Book 2 - Page 67

Book 2 - Page 67
Comic - Book 2  Page 67
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drachefly wrote:
Eh. He worked with what he was given. If you haven't seen the Red Letter Media reviews of the Star Wars prequels, well, just go to redlettermedia.com. The reviews have a better plot than the movies they're reviewing!


I was just going to recommend those myself. Mr. Plinkett touches on all the points mentioned here as to why the Prelogy is sub-par as a movie series. I don't know about reviews having better plots, but they're certainly entertaining and rewatchable imo. (If long. Last one I think is 90min!)

In fact one of the points in said reviews was

Renion wrote:
{The} job {of telling Lucas when he's having a bad idea} doesn't exist and never will.


no, actually, such a job may be performed by the (executive) producer. Often, this results in what a site of ill repute files under "Executive Meddling", but even they agree said meddling is sometimes for the best. Too much freedom means too much occasion for self-indulgence.

Art from Adversity FTW!
BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Renion wrote:
{The} job {of telling Lucas when he's having a bad idea} doesn't exist and never will.


no, actually, such a job may be performed by the (executive) producer. Often, this results in what a site of ill repute files under "Executive Meddling", but even they agree said meddling is sometimes for the best. Too much freedom means too much occasion for self-indulgence.

Art from Adversity FTW!


No, Bland, that is not what an Executive Producer does. Despite the length of their name Executive Producers have far less influence over a picture than the Producer.

In many cases, an Executive Producer is someone with extensive ties into the movie-making community. They have connections. If you need a cameo, these are the guys that know how to reach an appropriately recognized famous person. That's why many Exec Producers are long standing actors with long resumes, because they've simply worked with so many people they have the reputation to bring people on board. It goes beyond just actors, though, into specialist photographers, stuntmen, and so on.

There are other jobs Exec Producers can get that title for, and there has atually been an effort recently to rein in this overused title.
Tachyon wrote:
As long as we're on the Star Wars kick, figure I'll add my two cents on applications of Predictamancy.

Know how Jedi are always deflecting blaster bolts? S'pretty much canon that, in order to intercept the bolt to deflect it, that uses a limited form of prediction fed by sensitivity to the Force... which can be explained away as "knowing the exact size and shape of the blaster bolt that's coming towards you" in terms of its physical location, direction, and momentum. Take it out of context of Star Wars and this gives you Combat Predictamancy. Put it back in context and a lot of Stormtroopers got hit by their own blaster bolts. :P


It's stated outright in Phantom Menace that a force sensitive (young Anakin) can "see things before they happen" which is why he's a good pod racer. I imagine deflecting blaster bolts is the same thing, seeing them before they happen.
Kreistor wrote:
No, Bland, that is not what an Executive Producer does. Despite the length of their name Executive Producers have far less influence over a picture than the Producer.


Ok, so I got it wrong from RedLetterMedia, and they got it wrong from wherever.

Still, there does seem to be someone who can reign in a production- according to what I understand from your post, that'd be the Producer, which as far as I know is the "guy with the money". (<- insert nitpicks there, as movies are big investments with several investors etc) This phenomenon (of the producer butting in) is common enough to warrant a page on a certain site of ill repute, and whether the job is "Producer" or "Executive Producer" does not detract from my main point. Creative control is usually only partial by anyone in the process, and that may be a good thing.
I stand corrected. If we want to hold the producers responsible for giving George criticism, let's look at the credits.

Star Wars: Episode 1
Executive Producer: George Lucas
Producer: Rick McCallum
Director: George Lucas
Writer: George Lucas

Star Wars: Episode 2
Executive Producer: George Lucas
Producer: Rick McCallum
Producer: Lorne Orleans (IMAX version)
Director: George Lucas
Writer: George Lucas (Story and Screenplay)
Writer: Johnathan Hales (Screenplay)

Star Wars: Episode 3
Executive Producer: George Lucas
Producer: Rick McCallum
Director: George Lucas
Writer: George Lucas


Now let's compare that to the good trilogy

Episode 4 (A great movie)
Producer: Gary Kurtz
Director: George Lucas
Writer: George LUcas

Episode 5 (The best one)
Executive Producer: George Lucas
Producer: Gary Kurtz
Associate Producer: Jim Bloom
Associate Producer: Robert Watts
Director: Irvin Kershner
Writer: Leigh Brackett (Screenplay)
Writer: Lawrence Kasden (Screenplay)
Writer: George Lucas (Story)

Episode 6 (Something went wrong, what was it?)
Executive Producer: George Lucas
Producer: Howard G. Kazanjian
Co-Producer: Jim Bloom
Co-Producer: Robert Watts
Director: Richard Marquand
Writer: George Lucas (Screenplay and Story)
Writer: Lawrence Kasden (Screenplay)

George can write and direct a good movie. He can produce and give the story for a great movie, but when he produces and writes the screenplay things get funky. When he has complete creative control (producer, writer, director) the movies are terrible.
Renion wrote:
I stand corrected. If we want to hold the producers responsible for giving George criticism, let's look at the credits.

Star Wars: Episode 1
Executive Producer: George Lucas
Writer: George Lucas

Star Wars: Episode 2
Executive Producer: George Lucas
Writer: George Lucas (Story and Screenplay)
Writer: Johnathan Hales (Screenplay)

Star Wars: Episode 3
Executive Producer: George Lucas
Writer: George Lucas

Now let's compare that to the good trilogy

Episode 4 (A great movie)
Producer: Gary Kurtz
Writer: George Lucas

Episode 5 (The best one)
Executive Producer: George Lucas
Writer: Leigh Brackett (Screenplay)
Writer: Lawrence Kasden (Screenplay)
Writer: George Lucas (Story)

Episode 6 (Something went wrong, what was it?)
Executive Producer: George Lucas
Writer: George Lucas (Screenplay and Story)
Writer: Lawrence Kasden (Screenplay)

George can write and direct a good movie. He can produce and give the story for a great movie, but when he produces and writes the screenplay things get funky. When he has complete creative control (producer, writer, director) the movies are terrible.


This. A thousand times this. Hayden is a good actor. I was forced to admit this after someone pointed out Cruel Intentions. The problem is that no one could have played that part well because the writing was freaking TERRIBLE! It was a horrible part. Period. Ani was an emo whiner with the Plot Gods looking after him. It was just BAD. The acting is secondary to the fact that the character itself SUCKS.

Anakin: You're doing it wrong, George!
Sieggy wrote:
Sigh. Absolutely none of this is even remotely applicable in Erfworld. Units are popped and know their duty. Kill or be killed. Prisoners are not taken, except in the case of those units which might prove useful to their captors. Why bother? It's easier and cheaper to simply croak them and pop new units - turning them would take too long, and they'd probably have low loyalty anyway, so why take the risk?
The only problem with this post is that there are some, who will remain unnamed *cough*oslecamo clone*cough*, who insist that all sides take plenty of prisoners, expend a lot of resources turning those prisoners, and that the mass slaughter of captured enemy units is a fiction.
Sieggy wrote:
All sides on this argument keep taking Stupidworld situations, morals, & ethos, and trying to fit them into a game-like reality where croaking violently is simply the norm - in a world where no one seems to die of disease or old age, being croaked by an enemy is simply accepting the will of the Titans.
Not all sides. Not me. I could give a used fig for Stupidworld situations, the Erfworld situations carry enough weight of example to predict how the GK side would have ended up had Parson actually surrendered to Ansom. The casters may have been turned, and all the remaining thousands of other GK units would have been slaughtered. This is canon.
The RCC did not band together to issue a stern letter of disapproval to Stanley. They banded together to destroy Stanley and his entire side.
Renion wrote:
Goshen wrote:
Renion wrote:
Was Hayden miscast? Absolutely, but it's not entirely his fault that episodes 2 and 3 were garbage. Blame Lucas.
Alas, it is so true! There were so many missed opportunities in those movies to make them not suck. Lucas definitely needs to hire some people to tell him when he's messing up. Wonder how one does that?

That's the heart of the problem, Goshen. That job doesn't exist and never will.
It exists, but it requires either a self-imposed humbleness or the ability to see the truth in what your advisers are suggesting, even if it is contrary to your own vision. Both are vanishingly rare capabilities.

My own reading suggests that there is a line of thought floating out there that Lucas screwed up when he directed Hayden to act Anakin as a petulant, arrogant, and willfully disobedient child. And that this is why Hayden's acting was so horrible. But thinking about it, if Anakin was portrayed as a well balanced, obedient, patient little jedi-in-training, why would he ever have fallen and become Darth Vader? Without character flaws to exploit, Anakin wouldn't have been able to have been tempted and manipulated by Palpataine.
Renion wrote:
On the bright side, Lucas should be dead in a few more decades. Maybe then some new talent can step in and give the IP and fans what they deserve.
That's not "the bright side" for me, when my own lifespan is actuarially going to be of a similar length...
Oberon wrote:
My own reading suggests that there is a line of thought floating out there that Lucas screwed up when he directed Hayden to act Anakin as a petulant, arrogant, and willfully disobedient child. And that this is why Hayden's acting was so horrible. But thinking about it, if Anakin was portrayed as a well balanced, obedient, patient little jedi-in-training, why would he ever have fallen and become Darth Vader? Without character flaws to exploit, Anakin wouldn't have been able to have been tempted and manipulated by Palpataine.


Anakin had Darth Vader's character flaws: lack of empathy, ruthlessness, cruelty, impatience, short temper, and arrogance… but that doesn't mean that the vehicles for presenting them were well chosen. And it doesn't mean that the temptations that Palpatine used made sense given his character flaws.

If I were writing the prequels, I would have had the temptation of Anakin be by way of pride and impatience - failures Vader is already known to possess, rather than… what, fear of losing a loved one? That weakens the end of RotJ by making his turn to the light side be because of a character flaw!

No, I would have had the Vader persona appear gradually. Palpatine secretly inducts him into a special unit which is given certain 'necessary but dirty' tasks that the Jedi council won't tackle. At first, it's things like assassinating separatist war criminals, then delivering stern warnings to corrupt republic officers, then kidnapping separatist leaders' families, then assassinating ineffective republic officers (complain that the bureaucracy is so slow - our soldiers are dying because of these pigs!). And have him do it under the name of Vader, in the costume but without the life support system. And for farf's sake, have him kick ass in a conventional starfighter battle or two, rather than this sawblade droid bullshit.

These can be infrequent, so he doesn't arouse the suspicions of Obi-Wan, but… once he's done the first one, he's trapped. If he refuses to go along, Palpatine can turn him in and he's arranged it to look like he's squeaky clean. And when he does them, he is accoladed and praised. Palpatine ensures that Anakin hears people - plants, if necessary - speaking in whispering tones being glad this Vader guy is out there doing the stuff that needs to be done, that the Jedi wouldn't do.

Of course, one problem is that this plot to turn Anakin makes so much more sense than the plot to turn Luke that it would retroactively make RotJ worse. This is a price I would be willing to pay, I guess.

Oh, also, make Luke and Leia illegitimate so Anakin wouldn't be hanging out near a pregnant wife. You'd think he'd pick up on there being twins, what with both medical technology and force powers. Then the mother can survive for a time, long enough for Leia to remember her.

~~~

And the clone wars cartoons can't exactly be blamed on Lucas, but did they have to make Anakin such a caring guy? You're looking at the future Darth Vader here, he shouldn't be casualty averse. He should have charged the bridge of the Malevolent and bombed the crap out of it and shrugged when he heard the clones were wiped out. Oh well.
If we're going to speculate on a better story arc for Anakin becoming Vader...

Anakin started life as a slave. In Episodes 4-6 he was seduced by the "power" of the dark side of the force.

Imagine a trilogy about a good person living at the mercy of others; or rather, their lack of mercy. A character that struggled to gain the power to free himself and his family from slavery. Unfortunately, power comes at a price. Getting it requires sacrifices, and keeping it means making not-so-nice choices. A character trying forever to repay an impossible debt and resorting to whatever means necessary to do so. Maybe the core choice in his life (Episode 3) was choosing power over love (or family, or w/e) and, as was resolved in RotJ, redeeming himself at the end. Or, perhaps, instead of redemption Luke and Leia's actions (leading the Rebellion, destroying the Empire) released him from his burden. Children paying the debt of their father.

Almost anything would have been better than what Ep. 1-3 became.
Renion wrote:
If we're going to speculate on a better story arc for Anakin becoming Vader...

[snip]
Imagine a trilogy about a good person living at the mercy of others; or rather, their lack of mercy.
[snip]


No, it's much, much easier than that. You can leave everything the same, mostly. Lucas set it up, but he missed it...

Palpatine proposes a new bill to the Senate in which he proposes the Republic end all slavery, etc. in the outer rim systems. It gets resistance, because the Republic demonstrated in Ep 1 that it would not police the outer systems and force morality on them. Anakin, being a former slave, has to support the idea, even as the Jedi refuse to take part in enforcing it.

Now Palpatine can reveal himself, and promote the Dark Side as the voice of reason, to extend the Rule of Law to the worlds of vice and corruption that the selfish and self-centered Republic refuse to help towards civilization. The Dark Side and the Empire that Sidius proposes makes sense to a idealistic young man.

Even as that bill fails, Anakin grows to resent the Jedi for their refusal to aid those in need, becoming Vader through hatred masked as righteous anger, not the pathetic jealousy Lucas chose to go with.