Book 2 - Page 63

Book 2 - Page 63
Comic - Book 2  Page 63
Recent posts... (See full thread)
Oberon wrote:
This seems reasonable, until the examples are considered. The RCC had no caster support, but the RCCII had all casters placed under the control of Ossomer. Ossomer taunted Ansom with this fact.

RCC was on the offensive. RCCII was attempting to avoid annihilation. That seems like a valid reason to risk putting the casters in harm's way, and thus doesn't refute the original point.

Oberon wrote:
Other "field" casters we've seen are Sizemore in the GK tunnels; Jack, flying into the "we're punching through" combat led by Stanley and who is traveling now with the GK expeditionary forces;

GK/Stanley seeking to avoid annihilation, and thus doesn't refute the original point.

Oberon wrote:
Wanda, who needs to be present after a combat (or during it) in order to convert casualties inflicted upon the enemy into new units for the GK side;

Wanda is Tool-attuned, and can be treated as an exception to the rule. Also, she's a bit crazy, if you hadn't noticed.

Oberon wrote:
and Vanna, who flew into a combat zone with Jillian and her air force in order to cast (*ptui!*) kingworld upon GK.

Vanna was in a link, placed into a situation to assist RCCII, who was (and still is) attempting to avoid annihilation. Last Stands are plausible exceptions.

Oberon wrote:
We can even count Chewie, who ran after a decked out CWL and confronted him one to one. And then of course Sizemore, Janice, and Marie who jumped into that same confrontation. That's a rather large set of examples of casters being in the front lines, being in harm's way, and being risked, either by their side or by tnemselves. There is a great deal of example situations. More than enough to counter the "normally unwilling to risk what the casters can do in support for a front line battle" theory.

The Magic Kingdom is currently considered neutral territory. Confronting anyone there would not normally be considered a risk, especially since Jojo honestly claimed he was just trying to help Parson.

So, for the record, all of your counter-examples are either (1) desperate last stands / flights for survival, (2) neutral territory, or (3) Wanda, who is crazy and Tool-attuned.

Those don't really refute the original point, honestly, but if you want to conclude that any casters who are in a position of a desperate last stand would willingly risk creating the SPW scroll, sure, we'll grant you that.
What MarbitChow said.
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Wanda, who needs to be present after a combat (or during it) in order to convert casualties inflicted upon the enemy into new units for the GK side;

Wanda is crazy, and I would argue has no business charging into battle. They should be able to beat people to death with the dwagon swarms, have an Archon check a whole dwagon relay path, and then relay Wanda out and back to the site of battle. She is almost as important as Stanley himself.
More importantly she isn't acting as a caster, but an arkentool wielder and warlord. She hasn't cast a single spell this whole battle.
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Ossomer taunted Ansom with this fact. Other "field" casters we've seen are Sizemore in the GK tunnels; Jack, flying into the "we're punching through" combat led by Stanley and who is traveling now with the GK expeditionary forces;
Desperate last stands all, except for the last part. But Jack spent most of his existence being a support caster. Either veiling cities, or in the table. And foolamancers would seem much less able to run support than other casters. Also Wanda wants to croak and decrypt Jack.
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and Vanna, who flew into a combat zone with Jillian and her air force in order to cast (*ptui!*) kingworld upon GK.
I strongly suspect she is there to get revenge at least in part. Or is it a coincidence that the best turnamancer for the job just happened to be the one who would want revenge on GK. So at least some casters might take a risk for revenge.
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We can even count Chewie, who ran after a decked out CWL and confronted him one to one.
Same thing as Vanna, and the MK is neutral ground.
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And then of course Sizemore, Janice, and Marie who jumped into that same confrontation.
Janice and Marie, of course are not there for money. They are on neutral ground, and finally they can all be decrypted.

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There is a great deal of example situations. More than enough to counter the "normally unwilling to risk what the casters can do in support for a front line battle" theory.
Yeah, see that isn't how things work. What would you consider "normally X is not the case". What percentage of times would X have to be the case for "normally X is not the case" to be false? 10% 1%, .000000000000000000001%? Assuming you picked a number greater than 0% "Normally a real number is not an rational number." I can find infinite examples of rational numbers that are also real number and yet...

Second point. I have cannon support. Casters are too rare and too valuable to risk.

Finally its not important if sometimes risked. It is if casters are worth there upkeep back out of harms way. Sizemore builds cities, and units. A thinkamancer communicates and places loyalty spells on captured units. A dittomancer increases production two-fold IIRC. A turnamancer has a fifty percent increase and mass turns. A hatamancer makes raw materials for a dollamancer, makes hats, and I suspect can pull orlies out of his hat. (He wasn't even at the last stand for Spacerock.) A moneymancer presumably makes/saves money somehow, and produces gems. Pierce the healomancer didn't go on the front lines until recently so even he was worth his upkeep sitting in the capital. A shockamancer spells up a tower before leaving. Casters are considered valuable away from battle. If they weren't worth more than their upkeep that would not be the case. If Pierce the healomancer was not worth his upkeep sitting in the capital, he would have been sent into battle. If Sizemore or Maggie weren't worth their upkeep back in GK they would be on the front lines. Ditto the rest of them. Casters can make very powerful, and valued even when simply using the juice to run support. There is no reason to believe they will be unable to make upkeep without risking themselves.
Don't forget that leaving the casters in your capital doing other stuff like units/support, you greatly reduce the possibility of a decapitation strike at your main leader. If the whole side of my faction hinged on the survival of a single relatively fragile unit, I certainly would want to keep my best units as close to it as possible in case my oponent tries something funny. Mancers thus do double duty as city suport and supreme line of defense.
Also the flavor's of casters needed to produce the SPW spell would be particularly suited to sitting back in saftey and casting. As far as we know lookamancers simply scry. Thinkamancers spend most of their juice on thinkagrams and probably a few loyalty spells every time a caster is captured. And finally a dash of combat magic. The only findamancy magic we know about is summoning (and if they can summon harvestables, they may not even need to work.) And predictamancers simply make predictions. We haven't seen any use of magic from the, predictamancers, and lookamancers that would benefit from being on the front, and we know that thinkamancers mainly do thinkagrams. Findamancers would benefit from slightly faster deployment time. It seems extremely plausible that a side could value the help of these units above the upkeep value even if they won't risk themselves in battle.
Lamech wrote:
Basic economics tells us casters are highly valued. Sides value casters for what they do off the front lines so much above there upkeep they are normally unwilling to risk what the casters can do in support for a front line battle.

Oberon wrote:
This seems reasonable, until the examples are considered. The RCC had no caster support, but the RCCII had all casters placed under the control of Ossomer. Ossomer taunted Ansom with this fact.


True, he did, but we can also see that in the beginning of Book 1, Wanda, Sizemore, and the three other GK casters are all in GK, away from their own forces.

And at this point, GK has not captured or killed any casters in the field to test the Pliers on, so in the lead up to Book 2, no Caster was ever used in the Battlefield against Ansom and Wanda.

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Other "field" casters we've seen are Sizemore in the GK tunnels;


Tunnels are a GK zone, so he's defending their last city. Desperate last stand under Parson, not Stanley. Parson is always an exception.

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Jack, flying into the "we're punching through" combat led by Stanley and who is traveling now with the GK expeditionary forces;


Leaving GK for FAQ was a desperate escape plan attempting to avoid combat by slipping past potential enemies. Stanley could take anyone he wanted, since everyone that he didn't was expected to die in GK.

It might have worked if Jack was mentally undamaged. Again, an exceptional event, since we have not seen other Rulers attempt such an escape. Bea and Slately have stayed in their Capitals until the end approached.

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Wanda, who needs to be present after a combat (or during it) in order to convert casualties inflicted upon the enemy into new units for the GK side;


Not done at the beginning of Book 1, only once they reached the city and there was nowhere else for her to go.

[qote]Vanna, who flew into a combat zone with Jillian and her air force in order to cast (*ptui!*) kingworld upon GK.[/quote]

Inside a city with a portal to MK. If the spell succeeded, she would be on Turn and could be flown to safety. If it failed, she could step into MK. She was never in danger.

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We can even count Chewie, who ran after a decked out CWL


No, we can't. He was Neutral, and not under orders from a Ruler. This is about how Sides use their Casters, not whether Casters want to fight.

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And then of course Sizemore, Janice, and Marie who jumped into that same confrontation.


Janice and Marie are Neutral, and not an example. Sizemore chose to put himself in harms way, and was not acting under Parson's orders. We're talking about how a Side treats its casters, not how Casters choose to act when given free will.

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That's a rather large set of examples of casters being in the front lines


And none of them are examples of Sides using Casters in armies, unless they are mounting a desperate defense of their Capital city.

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being in harm's way, and being risked, either by their side or by tnemselves.


"By themselves" is not evidence of a Ruler issuing Orders. Many casters have evidenced aggression and a desire to fight, including Ace. We are not talking about casters liking to be in combat, we are talking about Sides ordering Casters into combat.

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There is a great deal of example situations. More than enough to counter the "normally unwilling to risk what the casters can do in support for a front line battle" theory.


It's not a theory. It's a Klog.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F084a.jpg

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He told me that Casters are Commanders and can lead Stacks, but they almost never do. Casters are too rare and valuable to risk, and they give no leadership bonus to the stack anyway.


So while your efforts amusing, you can find a thousand good examples, and still be wrong. We are not seeing the normal in this story, we see only the exceptional. We are not going to ever see a "normal" battle because stories are written about the extraordinary, and the extraordinary is the reason Sizemore said, "almost never," and not, "never." Sizemore is an expert on what normally occurs in Erfworld, and his word must be accepted, unless another expert disagrees.

We are analysts, not experts.
Kreistor, you offer a lot of "Nuh-uh", but none of it directly contradicts me. You only seek to present extenuating circumstances as being valid counters, but that's a fail.
Kreistor wrote:
True, he did, but we can also see that in the beginning of Book 1, Wanda, Sizemore, and the three other GK casters are all in GK, away from their own forces.
This point does nothing to contradict my examples of casters in the thick of it. US troops are often at home also, does that mean that US troops are not deployed abroad because of those examples? Hardly. You cannot validly cite a case where something isn't done to claim that something is never done. Fail.
Kreistor wrote:
And at this point, GK has not captured or killed any casters in the field to test the Pliers on, so in the lead up to Book 2, no Caster was ever used in the Battlefield against Ansom and Wanda.
First off, you cannot sate that with certainty. No killed or captured casters were mentioned in the narrative, but we also don't have a count of stabbers or knights killed or captured. You're making a statement based on the absence of evidence, and this is a fail. And even assuming that you are correct, this would be just another fact which is interesting but not significant. Citing examples where casters were not involved in combat does nothing to counter the many examples of casters being involved in combat.
Kreistor wrote:
Parson is always an exception.
That's a cheap position. "I can't be wrong even if you cite evidence to the contrary, because if Parson is there it suddenly doesn't count." Convenient! And also interesting but not significant. I cited plenty of examples of other leaders using casters in combat that even ignoring the Parson examples there are plenty enough to go around.
Kreistor wrote:
Leaving GK for FAQ was a desperate escape plan attempting to avoid combat by slipping past potential enemies. Stanley could take anyone he wanted, since everyone that he didn't was expected to die in GK.
First off, you're wrong about Stanley being able to take anyone he wanted. He mustered his KISS units and told them point blank that he could only take a few of them, and this clown. Second off, you are now claiming that Stanley is also an exception, similar to your "Parson is always an exception" claim above. Do you need to declare everyone an exception to counter the weight of my presented evidence? Just give it up, already!
Kreistor wrote:
Not done [Wanda in combat] at the beginning of Book 1, only once they reached the city and there was nowhere else for her to go.
Even the simple minded could understand that I was referring to Wanda needing to be present in combat in order to decrypt the fallen enemy dead. Claiming that this didn't happen much in Book 1 when she didn't have the 'pliers is not an intelligent counter. And, just as another case in point, Wanda was flying around collecting croaked WL to uncroak at the very beginning of TBfGK. That was behavior which risked her to a surprise combat.
Kreistor wrote:
[Vanna] Inside a city with a portal to MK. If the spell succeeded, she would be on Turn and could be flown to safety. If it failed, she could step into MK. She was never in danger.
BS. She was flying around the wilderness and not sequestered inside a city until the FAQ forces reached Jetstone. You're claiming that one turn-end position is equal to all turn-end positions, and that is just bunk. Vanna wasn't even being flown only within the confines of the territory of the side that hired her. She was flying around in the wilderness with a strike force. She was with a combat unit which was expected by everyone to engage with the GK expeditionary forces, an uncertain outcome indeed. And she was in danger of being involved in combat every turn she was mounted on a megalo and flying around with Jillian. And after leaving Jetstone she was with Jillian while they sacked at least one GK city. Every turn Vanna is with Jillian she is subject to the possibility of the danger of combat. There is no possible exception to this clear cut example of a caster being exposed to the same dangers as any other expeditionary unit.
Kreistor wrote:
No, we can't [count Chewie]. He was Neutral, and not under orders from a Ruler. This is about how Sides use their Casters, not whether Casters want to fight.
Right... Citation needed. You know for a fact that Chewie is just a neutral caster ignoring his needs to maintain his upkeep by buying or creating a scroll to try to cast on Parson? He, out of some sense of loyalty to Bea, perhaps, somehow found out that Parson was going to be in the MK at portal park on this turn (a feat which Marie the predictamancer called "hard"), and then he ran down a well armed CWL in order to avenge his fallen side? And he did this in a vacuum, with no one hiring him or supporting him in any way? You really believe that? Based on what evidence? On the flip side, we know that he did things which were "hard" for predictamancy specialists, and he isn't one, and that he had specialty items prepared which appear to also be outside of his specialty. Not certain evidence that he is hired out, but much safer money than assuming that he did all this as a lone wolf. But even if I grant you Chewie based on the uncertainty of his situation there are still plenty of examples remaining.
Kreistor wrote:
Janice and Marie are Neutral, and not an example. Sizemore chose to put himself in harms way, and was not acting under Parson's orders. We're talking about how a Side treats its casters, not how Casters choose to act when given free will.
Another set of extenuating circumstances, will it ever end? "2 of the casters are neutral, and the other one wasn't ordered into combat, so none of it counts." Was the dittomancer ordered into combat? Nope! He never was. He stood back and doubled (quadrupled!) arrows in flight. Was he regardless involved in a combat, and at potential risk? Yep! The GK flying forces could have easily attacked him just like they did the siege in TBfGK if it weren't for having a more pressing mission at Jetstone proper. Same for Sizemore. I'll grant you the neutrals, even though they are still casters who were involved in a combat situation. And did you fail to read the last update? No one has free will! Sizemore jumped into a potential combat situation because his duty made him. There is no out or special circumstance here by claiming that it wasn't ordered, so somehow it never happened. It did happen.
Kreistor wrote:
And none of [the rather large set of examples of casters being in the front lines] are examples of Sides using Casters in armies, unless they are mounting a desperate defense of their Capital city.
[...]
It's not a theory. It's a Klog.

You need words like "unless", or "special circumstance", or "desperate situation" to even attempt to counter the many examples I've provided. Why don't you give it up? Those exceptions don't even begin to cover Stanley bringing Jack into combat, but I know you have a "doesn't count! That was reason X" to play. I could play the same game, and claim some "special circumstance" made my own pet theory somehow more valid than actual, historical facts. But that's not a logical nor a valid counter argument. You are quite simply wrong and without basis. Your every attempt to claim otherwise is just a grasp at a straw, some "special circumstance" you must apply to attempt to eliminate each of the very many examples of that thing you refuse to accept. And just as an example, citing that Parson's klog says that something doesn't happen does not have any weight against the examples of that thing happening.
Kreistor wrote:
So while your efforts amusing, you can find a thousand good examples, and still be wrong.
[...]
We are analysts, not experts.
I'd be careful how you use that word, when you prove yourself more willing to discount evidence on the basis of claiming "special circumstance, doesn't count!" and "written word is contradicted, so historical evidence must be wrong!" You're not an expert, on that I will agree. When you conclude with "No matter how many real examples you provide, I'll always be able to find an excuse as to why every piece of it is wrong" I have to wonder if you're really being serious.
Oberon wrote:
Kreistor, you offer a lot of "Nuh-uh", but none of it directly contradicts me. You only seek to present extenuating circumstances as being valid counters, but that's a fail.


It depends on the nature of the claims being made. Clarify what you're driving at, and almost all of the following back-and-forth becomes irrelevant.

A few things stand out.

Oberon wrote:
Kreistor wrote:
And at this point, GK has not captured or killed any casters in the field to test the Pliers on, so in the lead up to Book 2, no Caster was ever used in the Battlefield against Ansom and Wanda.
First off, you cannot sate that with certainty.


What. Do you think they wouldn't have mentioned it when discussing the question of healing Jack or not? If it had happened, we would have heard about it.

Oberon wrote:
Kreistor wrote:
Parson is always an exception.
That's a cheap position. "I can't be wrong even if you cite evidence to the contrary, because if Parson is there it suddenly doesn't count."


Oberon, Oberon, Oberon. Cut it out with the insane strawmen already, okay? That's NOT what he said AT ALL.


Oberon wrote:
That was behavior which risked her to a surprise combat.

They had the table active. They knew the flight path was clear.


Oberon wrote:
And just as an example, citing that Parson's klog says that something doesn't happen does not have any weight against the examples of that thing happening.
[/quote]

See, if you two can keep foremost what it is you're attempting to prove, the relevance or irrelevance of this klog will be obvious.
Oberon wrote:
Kreistor, you offer a lot of "Nuh-uh", but none of it directly contradicts me. You only seek to present extenuating circumstances as being valid counters, but that's a fail.


You're not an objective judge of "fail". As an involved participant, you are inherently biased, and so your opinion is easily rejected.

Kreistor wrote:
True, he did, but we can also see that in the beginning of Book 1, Wanda, Sizemore, and the three other GK casters are all in GK, away from their own forces.


Oberon wrote:
This point does nothing to contradict my examples of casters in the thick of it. US troops are often at home also, does that mean that US troops are not deployed abroad because of those examples? Hardly. You cannot validly cite a case where something isn't done to claim that something is never done. Fail.


My example is consistent with Sizemore's statements in the Klog. Nothing you offer is evidence, just opinion and examples from irrelevant Earth. Rejected.

Kreistor wrote:
And at this point, GK has not captured or killed any casters in the field to test the Pliers on, so in the lead up to Book 2, no Caster was ever used in the Battlefield against Ansom and Wanda.


Oberon wrote:
First off, you cannot sate that with certainty


Book 2, Page 11 Panel 11. "A big one being, "we don't know if [Jack]'d still be able to cast or not."

Yeah, I can. Since we know Bea was unaware of Decrypted until they were on her Capital, no Units escaped from battle with Gobwin Knob to that point, implying that all fights took place on GK turn. Had a caster been participating, he would have been unable to escape the Hex. Erfworld is vicious to defenders... they cannot retreat out of the Hex, and so on a loss suffer 100% casualties. Had he been fighting, Ansom would not have ended Turn until the caster was found and captured or his corpse collected, just for the purpose of testing the Pliers on a caster. They could even have had Maggie get a Findamancy scroll from the MK, and dragon-chain it to the battlefield to uncover a Caster that had found a way to hide.

Kreistor wrote:
Parson is always an exception.

Oberon wrote:
That's a cheap position.


It's an accurate position. Parson is subject to many Erf rules, but not others. As an exception, what he can or cannot do is not evidence unless it is replicated by an Erfworlder or mentioned specifically. That's been SOP around here since the beginning.

Kreistor wrote:
Leaving GK for FAQ was a desperate escape plan attempting to avoid combat by slipping past potential enemies. Stanley could take anyone he wanted, since everyone that he didn't was expected to die in GK.

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First off, you're wrong about Stanley being able to take anyone he wanted. He mustered his KISS units and told them point blank that he could only take a few of them


That was not how that sentence was intended to be interpreted. "anyone he wanted" was intended to be interpreted as "any individual he wanted", within the limits of who could be carried (ie. not heavies). You interpreted anyone as "everyone he wanted", which was not my intent and inconsistent with the context of the discussion which was about who he selected and why, not how many he selected.

Kreistor wrote:
Not done [Wanda in combat] at the beginning of Book 1, only once they reached the city and there was nowhere else for her to go.


Oberon wrote:
Even the simple minded could understand that I was referring to Wanda needing to be present in combat in order to decrypt the fallen enemy dead.


That may have been your intent, but it was prejudicial, because it failed to cover all cases of Wanda's battlefield presence, or lack thereof. She could Uncroak in large numbers before she could Decrypt, and while Decrypting is obvious superior and all she would do now, in early Book 1 she could still Uncroak and have similar effect at a reduced scope and scale. Keeping her back during the opening of Book 1 is a case on point for me. Despite her stacking leadership bonus to Uncroaked, she was kept far from the battlelines, until she had infinite Decryption and an Artifact bonus to stack with her Leadership bonus to Decrypted.

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Claiming that this didn't happen much in Book 1 when she didn't have the 'pliers is not an intelligent counter.


Why? Because it's direct evidence against your position? With only the Capital remaining, Stanley still held all of his casters in GK against the RCC forces.

And let's note exactly what you said there. "when she didn't have the pliers" implies that having the pliers is the reason Wanda was permitted to attend the Battleforce. Since there is only one known caster with an Arkentool, that caster is the lone exception, so what happens to her while she carries the 'pliers is not evidence of what life is like for anyone that does not have an Arkentool.

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And, just as another case in point, Wanda was flying around collecting croaked WL to uncroak at the very beginning of TBfGK. That was behavior which risked her to a surprise combat.


Not exactly. She began in Tunnels. She was on GK Turn (since she was Moving), when the body can be moved out of the combat hex to a hex where no RCC units were located, so that she was never in danger. And drache mentioned the Table, (which I had completely forgotten about, thanks) which ensured no RCC units were in a Hex that she entered.

Kreistor wrote:
[Vanna] Inside a city with a portal to MK. If the spell succeeded, she would be on Turn and could be flown to safety. If it failed, she could step into MK. She was never in danger.


Oberon wrote:
BS. She was flying around the wilderness and not sequestered inside a city until the FAQ forces reached Jetstone.


Except for one thing: my position is not an absolute. Sizemore states that casters are "almost never" on the battlefield. That means sometimes they can be on the battlefield. You can cite and cite and cite, and you can never actually disprove Sizemore. It's impossible, because the fallback position is, "We're watching only the important parts, missing vast numbers of battles, and so can never have a sense of what is average."

It is amusing to watch you try, though.

But here, I'll hand you one. There are two examples of unnecesaary casters in battles where they are either not defending their own Capital or cannot get to a Portal -- the Dittomancer on the Bridge, and Vanna on the tower. There you do. Happy?

And it doesn't prove Sizemore wrong at all. His statement is not an absolute, and is only disproven if we can get data on all of the fights we missed.

Kreistor wrote:
No, we can't [count Chewie]. He was Neutral, and not under orders from a Ruler. This is about how Sides use their Casters, not whether Casters want to fight.

Oberon wrote:
Right... Citation needed. You know for a fact that Chewie is just a neutral caster ignoring his needs to maintain his upkeep by buying or creating a scroll to try to cast on Parson?


*Sound of jaw dropping to floor*

"He's a free Carnymancer, Originally from FAQ." Marie. Today's comic.

And the rest, where you talk about Upkeep.... DUUUUUDE! What the frack do you think MK is? It's the home for Barbarian Casters. Free Casters. Unsided Casters. Neutral Casters. They're all synonymous. The whole point of Parson sending Maggie, Sizemore, and Wanda to the MK (prior to the discussion of the volcano link) was so that when the side ended, they would be free. That's why Bea sent her casters through when her side ended, or else they would have been disbanded like every other Unaroyal unit and Jojo wouldn't even exist now.

If you need citation on that, go the Wiki and have a read. You'll find all the citiation is there, all ready for you to scan.

Kreistor wrote:
Janice and Marie are Neutral, and not an example. Sizemore chose to put himself in harms way, and was not acting under Parson's orders. We're talking about how a Side treats its casters, not how Casters choose to act when given free will.


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Another set of extenuating circumstances, will it ever end? "2 of the casters are neutral, and the other one wasn't ordered into combat, so none of it counts."


No, they're not on point for you at all. You're the one trying to prove that casters are used in Armies. I have no idea how you think Marie and Janis in MK, not even on a continent with an Army, are examples of anything remotely relevant.

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Was the dittomancer ordered into combat? Nope! He never was. He stood back and doubled (quadrupled!) arrows in flight.


This isn't about Casters being in melee combat. This is about them being with an Army. Teh Dittomancer is a direct example, but not in this way. Melee combat is totally irrelevant.

Kreistor wrote:
And none of [the rather large set of examples of casters being in the front lines] are examples of Sides using Casters in armies, unless they are mounting a desperate defense of their Capital city.
[...]
It's not a theory. It's a Klog.


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You need words like "unless", or "special circumstance", or "desperate situation" to even attempt to counter the many examples I've provided.


All of your examples are either :
1. Desperate defences of Capitals with Portals nearby from which the Casters can escape
2. Not people in front lines of Armies. Individuals fighting other individuals far from battle lines, and in the case of MK, not even on the same continent.

That's not "exception", that's Pattern. Remember that Sizemore says "almost never", so exceptions do occur. There were 9 City captures leading up to the BfGK, which makes Capital Defences rare examples of battles. And don't forget Transylvito's attacks on Carpool, which are not intended to conquer, just loot for the Treasury. How many cities did Ansom recapture for Gobwin Knob on the way to Unaroyal and Spacerock? More non-Captial defences to add to the stack.

But we do not see these plot-irrelevant Battles. There can be a thousand battles oing on across Erfworld right now, but we're seeing only one very important one that has dire consequences for the Defender, just as in Book 1.

Oberon wrote:
Why don't you give it up?


Because it's fun to see you implode. People like you, that love to directly insult other people's intelligence, are the easiest. No one respects that kind of language, so really, I can't lose, no matter what I say. I gain points simply by treating you with respect, despite your vacuous taunting.

Oh, you don't think I'm doing this to actually convince YOU of anything, do you? That's clearly impossible: you'll never let anyone convince you of anything.

Kreistor wrote:
We are analysts, not experts.

[quote="Oberon"]I'd be careful how you use that word, when you prove yourself more willing to discount evidence on the basis of claiming "special circumstance, doesn't count!" and "written word is contradicted, so historical evidence must be wrong!"[quote]

Well, present some evidence instead of opinion, and I'll discount it for you. I'm discounting your opinions, not your evidence. I have yet to see any evidence, actually, just taunts and opinion.
Kreistor wrote:
We are analysts, not experts.
Oberon wrote:
I'd be careful how you use that word, when you prove yourself more willing to discount evidence on the basis of claiming "special circumstance, doesn't count!" and "written word is contradicted, so historical evidence must be wrong!"
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Well, present some evidence instead of opinion, and I'll discount it for you. I'm discounting your opinions, not your evidence. I have yet to see any evidence, actually, just taunts and opinion.
I've presented nothing but evidence, and no opinions. You, on the other hand, have countered each and every in-strip case I've presented with a very convenient and long laundry list of your opinions on why each of my points of evidence should not count. Pot.kettle.black.
Oberon wrote:
I've presented nothing but evidence, and no opinions. You, on the other hand, have countered each and every in-strip case I've presented with a very convenient and long laundry list of your opinions on why each of my points of evidence should not count. Pot.kettle.black.
This still about what rulers value the various things casters do at right? If rulers place a value on the non-combat work that casters do above that casters upkeep?

Alright then on to the "examples" and why they don't show what you want them to show: One the MK casters fighting, Janice and Marie aren't rulers. No one cares what they do. We are trying to figure out what rulers, the ones that pay casters, think. Marie and Janice are free to risk themselves for whatever cause they think worthwhile and it says nothing about what rulers think. Jojo never attacked, he may have just wanted to give Parson a free ride home; why would Jojo believe he was in danger if that was indeed the case? If you offer someone a ride home do you consider you may be shanked? Finally, Sizemore did put himself in danger for his side; but this just means that his risk-benefit analysis was favorable to doing this; but that is obviously the case. Parson is more valuable that Sizemore, assuming the caster attacked and Parson would lose*, Sizemore and his friends could likely save Parson's life (see Janice's attack). Hence we have a small chance of losing Sizemore against the larger chance of saving Parson. The choice is obvious. This mearly tells us that Sizemore is less valuable than Parson, but... Parson has a freaking super-mathamancer on his arm, among his super-warlord skillz. This was simply minimizing what was likely lost.
*Note the caster may have been friendly or lacked the power to overcome a lone level 2 warlord. If either of these was the case Sizemore was in no significant danger and provide no significant benefit.

On to Vanna. Why is Vanna fight here? Is it for cash or for revenge? I truly doubt Vanna was randomly the best turnamancer for the job. If she is doing this for vengeance then it doesn't mean she would take similar risks for just cash. Furthermore a turnamancer increases production by 50% (not sure if that is across the whole kingdom or just one cities production), but it seems very possible the rations harvested from an extra unit every few turns might pay for the turnamancer.

Wanda: She is not acting as a caster. She is not valued at all for her croakamancy, but her attunement. Therefore when we want to analyze the value of normal casters she doesn't really count.

Finally we have a bunch of casters risking themselves in the final battle. Well guess what? Its the final battle, they are getting risked. If that battle is lost the casters are lost as well. So we can either risk the casters, and minimize that risk by placing the casters in the final battle, or STILL risk the casters but have higher risk. A case were risk was minimized to the casters shows nothing.


Again rulers normally consider the caster's upkeep worth it when those casters are sitting in the capital. Not counting final battles. (Which don't count because your actually minimizing the risk of losing your casters.) Sizemore and Maggie hardly ever fight. Until this one battle Jack has stayed safe at home. Wanda stayed back until she stopped acting as a caster. The dittomancer, and dollamancer have hid completely. The healomancer was deemed worth it in the capital, right until they lost the natural allies. The hatomancer stayed hidden even in the final battle. And we have tons of caster flavors that would seem serve almost there whole purpose off the battle field. Thinkamancers, lookamancers, predictamancers, the summoning of findamancy, moneymancers. Even straight up blasters such as the shockamancers are kept away from the battle field by carpool. All signs, I think point to rulers placing great value on casters even when those casters do not risk themselves, certainly they value a caster's non-combat functions above there upkeep.