Book 2 - Page 45

Book 2 - Page 45
Comic - Book 2  Page 45
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The most obvious result that calling up everyone in the world every day just to chat would have is revealing that you are capable of calling up everyone in the world every day just to chat. I believe that, at the moment, only Charlescomm and Gobwin Knob know that fact. Given how close to the vest Charlie likes to play, I'm completely unsurprised that he prefers keeping that secret over the dubious benefits of chatting with units that have little free will and less influence, or with leaders that might only be aggravated by his calls (consider the last time you got phone-spam from $OPPOSING_POLITICAL_PARTY... how kindly disposed to them did that make you feel?), or might even derive more intelligence from his conversation, above and beyond the simple fact that he can do it, than he wanted or intended to share (witness his conversations with Parson).

And, as others have already pointed out, unlimited juice does not mean unlimited attention or patience. Nor does it imply unlimited ability to remember, comprehend, and predict the effects of an unlimited number of communications on the situation that one is attempting to affect.

Charlie prefers to use his communications capability as a precision manipulating instrument. It's possible that that's not actually a superior approach to bluntly spamming everyone in the world, but I'm not prepared to stipulate that, and it's certainly not so obviously inferior to the brute-force strategy as to make its preferential employment by a character who is well-established to prefer subtle and secret manipulation a "plot hole".
. . . if you have unlimited minutes on your cell phone, are you going to call everyone you know every day to make use of them . . ?
Lots of people have unlimited call time. Very few people are calling others 24/7. Real world leaders are not constantly talking to one another. Charlie probably does talk to quite a few people, or has his fox force five call. But not calling everyone everyday, is fairly normal for people.

Quote:
I am not sure that is true. This would be like a game of chess without a clock: the loser can theoretically stall forever (in practice, until the winner gets bored). For example, consider a ruler whose side is about to end (e.g Uniroyal or Stanley if he hadn't summoned Parson or even a barbarian that has run out of provisions). What is to stopping them from saying to their enemies "I'm not going to end the turn until the circumstances that lead to my demise are altered -- pay me a million schmuckers so that I can promote my units and upgrade my city". I would guess that there is some mechanism that prevents this
We had a reference to GK's turn being ended "early". Every turn has a time limit of some sort.
danhaas wrote:
Skittles wrote:
name lips wrote:
The only GK units in Spacerock who have Plot Immunity to Death are Wanda and Jack (even if only because the mystery of Faq still needs full exposition).

You only need one person to tell a story. I learned that from Mulan.


But to kill Wanda now would be like killing Aragorn right after he receives Andúril. To kill Parson, well, it would be as dramatic as killing Sauron before Frodo gets anywhere near Mount Doom.

I meant that you only need Jack or Wanda to tell the story of FAQ.
A Turn is your side's actions within a 24 hour day, you do NOT have unlimited time, you have as much time as it would take for the sun to set, so there is an upward cap on stall tactics, which is either 12 or 24 hours depending on whether or not they're talking about a "24 hour day" to include the night or not
Stalling will never work because of relative time. Even assuming that you can stretch a turn, there's still issues.

While in theory you could stretch a day indefinitly, for an enemy who's ended their turn (or even waiting for you to end yours), no more then the span of daylight will pass before you end your turn (as all units nights are the same.) Attempts to "wait it out" only hurt yourself, since by enemies perception you only stalled a few hours.

Now, lets say your side had an impending doom, and you tried to wait it out: fatigue still gets you.

Units do need to sleep. They need to eat. Rations pop at dawn. If you tried to have, say, a 72 hour day, it's safe to say your units would be utterly exausted and begin to starve. You could allow them additional rations or send them to forage, but this would use move/schumuckers and would eventually erode to no longer being an option, as you aren't allowing yoru reasources to refresh. Not to mention that abuse of this mechanic would almost certainly start to erode loyalty in said underfed/overworked units. You'd have to reach a point where you couldn't continue. Now, in the extreme case, your own units or natural allies might attempt a coup (better then starving to death), or you yourself could eventually expire from your own fatique and lack of rations.

Either way, your enemies would marvel in the next hex how long you must have taken (since any units they saw would be moving around pretty fast when they saw 4 or so hours to your 72) and simply walk into your hex next turn when you disbanded and froze your side up. They might wonder what happened, but that's about it.

Incidentally,t his is the same reason charlie is not goign to talk to everybody every day. Unlimited thinkamancy? Sure. But if he starts putting in a relative 20 hours a day doing this, it's going to get real old real fast. A guy like charlie strikes me as an efficiency expert mentality, he's going to want to make better use of his time and keep himself sharp.

What I would believe though, since this power isn't known (and still debated, but we assume here he has it), is that he spends a good portion of his day (or maybe uses his elite archons) listening in to the thinkamancy conversations of various powers of interest every day. It lets him remain the information broker he is without actually giving his hand away.
In Civilization games you can engage in diplomacy with every side (you can reach) as many times as you want to per turn... and yet, I've never seen anyone refuse to end a turn so they can repeatedly go through the same dialogue with the same tiresome personalities over and over into infinity. :)
Oberon wrote:

I don't buy that. The turn based mechanics shapes the way a person approaches activities. Parson is a person who min/maxes anything he is interested in, but that doesn't make him unique amongst all of Erf. Charlie in particular prefers to play games which don't even contain a losing option. This philosophy is the verbalization of a min/max approach to his life.


Like pointed out altough it's a turn based game there's limits to how much "time" you can spend each turn.

Otherwise Hamster would've managed to learn all of Erfworld rules on the first turn he popped by questioning people/reading the library in a single turn. But no, he can only cram a certain amount of info each turn, and learns little by little.

Even Stanley confirms they don't have the time to go over the basics.

Later we also see Maggie doing some kind of mind-refreshing trick to Hamster. If there's a spell for that, it means erfworld people's mind can indeed grow tired from too much talking/reading.

Charlie's dish can make unlimited thinkgrams, but cannot make unlimited "refreshes". If he tried to talk to everybody everyday he would probably just end with a major headache.

TL, DR:
Maggie has a spell to refresh minds, wich means Erf people can get tired mentally. Thus, even Charlie cannot talk to everybody in Erfworld before colapsing in the floor from exhaustion.
oslecamo2 wrote:
Oberon wrote:

I don't buy that. The turn based mechanics shapes the way a person approaches activities. Parson is a person who min/maxes anything he is interested in, but that doesn't make him unique amongst all of Erf. Charlie in particular prefers to play games which don't even contain a losing option. This philosophy is the verbalization of a min/max approach to his life.


Like pointed out altough it's a turn based game there's limits to how much "time" you can spend each turn.
I don't recall reading about these limits. Can you point me to them?

oslecamo2 wrote:
Otherwise Hamster would've managed to learn all of Erfworld rules on the first turn he popped by questioning people/reading the library in a single turn. But no, he can only cram a certain amount of info each turn, and learns little by little.
Even Stanley confirms they don't have the time to go over the basics.
Parson wasn't calling end-of-turn, Stanley was. Parson was at the mercy of an erratic overlord who didn't value Parson from the beginning, and who couldn't comprehend why there was any value in teaching Parson "the basics." Had Stanley been a more thoughtful leader, TBFGK would have taken a sharp turn from the way it did end up going. Stanley had to leave GK, or Parson would have never been in charge, and GK never would have won. That's the entire irony of the matter: Stanley, present and in command, would have gotten everyone killed by second guessing Parson's advice or just flat out ignoring him. Stanley absent, GK could be led to victory by Parson.
oslecamo2 wrote:
TL, DR: [/b]Maggie has a spell to refresh minds, wich means Erf people can get tired mentally. Thus, even Charlie cannot talk to everybody in Erfworld before colapsing in the floor from exhaustion.
Maggie is a thinkamancer. The 'Dish gives Charlie "unmatched powers of thinkamancy." I think that it's safe to assume that anything Maggie can do, Charlie can do better. Thus, Charlie can talk to everyone on Erf without collapsing, as he has the same refreshment spell Maggie does, and either doesn't even need to bother with it as an effect of the "unlimited thinkagrams" statement (Yes, you can do X all day. Er, unless you get tired... Some superpower, eh?) or due to being able to constantly refresh himself.
Oberon wrote:
I don't recall reading about these limits. Can you point me to them?

-A side who's on a losing position cannot choose to simply not end their turn and force a "draw".
-There's calling your end of turn. There's not calling start of Dawn. Yet Hamster had limited time to study during the night. There's a background clock ticking somewhere.
-When Hamster goes to blow up the volcano, Charlie tries to stall. It's Charlie+Coalition's turn, yet Hamster could tell him to go screw himself and blow up the volcano anyway. Charlie couldn't "pause" the game to try to talk Hamster out of it.

Oberon wrote:
Parson wasn't calling end-of-turn, Stanley was. Parson was at the mercy of an erratic overlord who didn't value Parson from the beginning, and who couldn't comprehend why there was any value in teaching Parson "the basics."

He comprehended all right. He also comprehended that there simply wouldn't be enough time to teach him the basics, wich's a perfectly reasonable reason to be pissed off.

Oberon wrote:

Stanley absent, GK could be led to victory by Parson.

Nevermind Stanley drawin away the coalition's most valuable asset, Jillian Sue, togheter with their full airforce, on top of breaking the caster link so Maggie could provide him with valuable advice. Hamster would've never broken the link voluntarily, or at least on time for Maggie to properly explain him how Erfworld magic works.

Oberon wrote:
Maggie is a thinkamancer. The 'Dish gives Charlie "unmatched powers of thinkamancy." I think that it's safe to assume that anything Maggie can do, Charlie can do better. Thus, Charlie can talk to everyone on Erf without collapsing, as he has the same refreshment spell Maggie does, and either doesn't even need to bother with it as an effect of the "unlimited thinkagrams" statement

Says who? Unmatched =/=infinite everything.

If he could do infinite thinkmancy, don't you think it would be pointless for the archon to say he can make infinite thinkgrams? Why didn't the archon just say Charlie can do infinite thinkmancy?

He may have a super refresh spell, but even then he'll get tired sooner or later.

Oberon wrote:

(Yes, you can do X all day. Er, unless you get tired... Some superpower, eh?) or due to being able to constantly refresh himself.


The arkenpliers can decrypt any number of dead units. Untill you run out of proper corpses.
The arkenhammer can tame any number of dwagons. Untill you run out of wild ones (wich pop randomly).
The arkendish can make any number of thinkgrams. Untill your head is so full of info you can't hear anyone anymore.