Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) - Episode 065

Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) - Episode 065

“I have placed a single Shockmancy charge on the tower,” said Wanda‘s voice. “Let me know when to fire it.”

“She tunned!” exclaimed Marie‘s.

“She sees...the gwiffons as...as blocking her path,” said Jack absently, his concentration focused on the illusion he was creating for the fleeing Overlady. “But she isn‘t stupid, obviously.”

Standing there in the main street of Efbaum, blind Jillian nodded. She tried to picture the battle in her mind‘s eye, but couldn‘t imagine Olive would be stopped cold by such an obvious trick. Not after what they did to her instrument. “No, she won‘t get Fooled again.”

“She is still tunning, though,” said Marie. “She‘s climbing.”

“Not just flying right through the fakes?” asked Chief Jillian.

“No...” said Jack, after a slight hesitation.

The Croakamancer now spoke softly. “It‘s not her way, to directly charge at an enemy. Even one she‘s fairly sure is unreal. She‘ll always need a hidden advantage before confronting a threat.”

“I‘m...using it against her,” Jack struggled to explain. “Allowing her view of things to, ah...lag behind...the actual.”

Jillian understood right away what that would do to a flying unit. Olive would be turning more sharply than she thought. Maybe she‘d even turn completely around. And she wouldn‘t necessarily expect this second form of Foolamancy, after spotting the first. The Jack‘s tricks had tricks inside of them.

As more moments passed, she locked her fingers together and hoped for the best. But her casters were not telling her what was going on. She didn‘t know if the next thing she‘d hear would be “we got her” or “she got away.”

“I‘m trying to Predict the shot, Wanda,” said Marie eventually. Her voice was low, and thick with tense frustration. “I‘m only evah seeing that we miss.”

“Where are the gwiffons, Jack? How close?” asked the Chief.

“Closing,” said Jack. “I‘ve got her...turned almost parallel to the outer walls. They‘re cutting strai–a straight path. Toward her. Still fifteen seconds behind. She may still get out.”

“It‘s all zeros!” said Marie, sounding upset. “This is not Fate‘s plon for Olive Branch. Fate doesn‘t want her croaked this way.”

“Fate can suck a sweaty sausage!” said Jillian, making a pair of fists. What, was the entire game rigged against Faq? Small chances she could deal with, but zero chance was just unfair. Was that how the Titans played, for real? The world was run by cheaters? Everything was all Carnymancy? “Shoot the broom, then!” she snapped. “The broom‘s the problem, right? Shoot for the dismount, ‘n let her fall inside the city!”

Marie whispered something trancelike under her breath.

A little breeze blew, carrying the faraway scent of heroine buds to Jillian‘s nose. Her stomach twitched. Her fists stayed clenched. No-one else said a word.

A battle for two kingdoms was going on in the sky above her, but she couldn‘t see or hear anything of it. Even her big gwiffon heavies up there were running veiled and silent, emitting nary a peep. She had to play it all out in her own imagination.

So what, if anything, was really real? What was in her head? After everything she‘d been through on this mission, could she even tell anymore?

Marie cleared her throat. “It tuns out Fate doesn‘t motch care for that broom,” she said, sounding strangely amused. “Princess, you should ordah the gwiffons to fly below her. Wanda, take my hand, please.”

---

Jillian‘s sense of unfairness was now fixed on something a lot less important. Still, to be blind right now...she did feel pretty cheated.

“Jack?”

“Mm?”

“That thing where you can share what you‘re seeing with me...”

“I‘m sorry, my Chief Warlord, I can‘t now. I haven‘t the juice left.”

“No, I know,” said Jillian. “But...do you think you can remember all of this? And show it to me later?”

Jack chuckled. “Of course! The moment of great triumph, and everything. Or...you know, if not all of it, then certainly the important parts.

“To describe it for you now: the three gwiffons are in a smart formation. Very prim. They are just now clearing the last low building, and...now settling down to hover their way along the main thoroughfare toward us. The Overlady is gripped tightly in the maw of the lead gwiffon, arms pinned behind her, shackled feet free and dangling. She is not struggling, but she has turned her head to look our way. Her hair‘s a fright. A lot of it‘s stuck to the gwiffon‘s lips.”

Jillian smiled. “Gwiffons have lips?”

“Well, you know.”

“Thanks, Jack,” said Jillian. Her head hurt, her ribs hurt, but she still smiled at Jack Snipe. He was so cute sometimes, the way he put things. Even just his words could put wonderful images in her mind.

“Are you going to execute her, Chief Warlord?” asked Lady Firebaugh, standing close behind Jillian.

Her smile went slack.

Wanda‘s rough, breathy voice was familiar, but the tone had something strange in it. Respect. She was querying a superior officer. Surprisingly, her neck tingled at the sound of it. All that time in the glass box, all that time at the mercy of “Mistress.” Now she could give Wanda orders. How was it going to be from now on?

“Yeah,” answered Jillian. “I was thinking about having the gwiffon smother her right now, but how can you pass up the chance to croak a Level 12 caster? I‘ve never even seen a Level 12 caster besides her. I‘ll level up for sure.”

“I think it might still be wise to do it now,” said Wanda.

“Why? She can‘t cast or anything.”

“She can speak. She has tricks. And this is still Haffaton‘s turn. They will know she is here, and they will send forces.”

Jillian considered the advice. “What do they have that can reach?”

“High Elves, mostly,” said Wanda. “Some uncroaked infantry, a warlord or two.”

“Enough to take the city?”

“I don‘t think so. Perhaps.”

Jack‘s voice now said, “She is nearing. Closing within earshot.”

“Well, tell me if there‘s any sign of trouble,” said Jillian, lowering her tone a bit. “If even one arrow hits the outer walls, I‘ll order the gwiffon to snuff her.”

“No. You will not.” said her father‘s voice.

“Also,” added Jack, “the King has arrived. Sire.”

Jillian turned roughly in the direction that Banhammer‘s voice had come from, and raised her chin, trying to strike a defiant pose. For all she knew, she was looking the wrong way and looked ridiculous, but whatever.

“Yes. I will,” she said. “I told you, the side is at stake.”

“It isn‘t any longer,” said Banhammer. “She is our prisoner. The battle is won. So there‘s no sense in it. We will talk with her.”

“There‘s plenty of sense! Haffaton hasn‘t fallen yet! We have one city, they have...” Jillian didn‘t know, actually.

In the pause, there was a soft sound on the breeze. Crying. Olive‘s honor guard was coming in for a landing.

“Sixty-nine,” said Wanda.

“Titans, are you serious?!” exclaimed Jillian. She drew Three-Edged from her back. “Yeah. We‘re at war, Daddy. That‘s my side of the business. We win it now. With one chop, we‘re gonna take over the biggest side in the world.”

The sobbing was coming in close now. Jillian could hear the casters moving aside to make room for the landing beast. “Over here,” she pointed with her off hand, not wanting to sweep her sword blindly.

“Loj, help meeee,” Jillian heard Olive plead, as the gwiffon brushed by her. “Don‘t let her take my life! What about the Service of Life? What about the Service of Justiiihice!”

She could hear the gwiffon set down in the street. She might need a little help with the aim now...

“Princess Jillian!” boomed Banhammer, with all the might of a King‘s command. “Sheathe your sword!”

Jillian froze. It was not an easy thing to disobey an order, and she had a little less reason to do it now than she had before. Olive was Faq‘s prisoner now. The imminent threat was over, as far as anyone knew.

“Loj, what about the Service of Love? I love you!”

“Sheathe it at once, or I‘ll disband you!” shouted the King.

Jillian looked up to the sky in her blindness, not knowing what she was trying to see. Nothing could help. She had no way to ignore this order. She found herself sliding Three-Edged slowly back into its scabbard.

“King Banhammer,” said Marie, in a low growl. “Disbanding your daughter would be a crime you could nevah answer for. A crime against the whole wuhld, with consequences beyond your imagination. You must let her fulfill her Fate now. And you must not divert from your own! You know she will be Queen of Faq aftah you. You cannot allow yourself sotch intellectual cowahdice. Your wisdom means nothing if you do! Your life is wuss than nothing!”

The group fell silent. Even Olive stopped crying at this incredible affront.

“My life,” said Banhammer slowly, “is worse than nothing if I am only Fate‘s mechanism, its...blind tool. I would be a better man. I would be wise. I would be just. I would be good. And,” he said, drawing a deep breath, “I would be free to be all of those things, by the choices of my own mind and heart.”

“You ah free. To do evil, to commit a crime, yes,” said Marie. “But don‘t.”

“The execution is the crime!” exploded Banhammer. The shout echoed from the towers and buildings all around them. Jillian had only heard him lose his temper a few times. It was frightening each time.

“I don‘t think so,” said Jack Snipe.

“I know it is not,” said Marie.

“I have pledged you my Loyalty, Your Wisdom,” said Wanda, “Please accept my counsel on this matter.”

“No!” said Olive. “Loj, she hates me!”

After the barest pause, Banhammer said, “Speak, Lady Firebaugh.”

“The evil this woman has done in the world may exceed your comprehension,” said Wanda. “Each turn she has been alive has come at the cost of someone else‘s misery. She must be executed, without delay, by Princess Jillian‘s hand.”

Jillian wished she could see faces. She could only hear the muted sound of Overlady Branch, hovering on the verge of tears.

Her father spent a long time in thought. Jillian didn‘t want to think about what he might decide. She just mentally rehearsed the sword draw she‘d make, if he granted permission.

“We don‘t discuss the Service of Justice nearly enough at Court, do we?” he said at last.

“Bit of a running joke, really,” said Jack. “Isn‘t it? Where is the model? The natural justice we‘re meant to emulate? There is none. It‘s an unjust world.”

“But I‘ve often insisted: Justice is ours alone, to make,” said King Banhammer. “And so we shall. I have recalled the other casters here. Two of them have already arrived; Betsy is on her way to help Orwell. Lady Firebaugh, Croakamancer of the Court of Faq, you will have your chance to test what is beyond my comprehension. We will conduct a trial.

“You shall prosecute, and the Court and I shall judge.”

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Recent posts... (See full thread)
Kreistor wrote:
jkosta wrote:
He's trying, earnestly, to change the world.


No, he isn't. He's hiding wherever possible and letting the world do whatever it wants. Banhammer cares only about himself and his little, insulated bubble kingdom.

I think both of these views are valid. I would have agreed with jkosta and co until book 0, but that was mostly because I liked him due to Jillian's distaste for the man. In book 0 he has been portrayed as a man who runs on refined self-satisfaction. His actions beg the question of whether he is striving for his ideals or just butthurt about being brushed off by his daughter and his court, made to look like an ass by the woman he just fell for (who he fell for due to her flattery), and about to see this same woman who he still loves or at least hopes to score with be executed. All of this moralistic outrage could be just that, or it could be just petulance and him refusing to accept that he has been hoodwinked. I used to assume the best about him and attribute negative observations to Jillian's perspective, but the last 10 or so updates have changed that. His dominant personality trait might just be ego.

Then again, excessive ego isn't really excessive when you have the powers of an overlord. In many respects, he's one of the most grounded possible outcomes when someone has that much power.
Vreejack wrote:

It seems intentional on Balder's part. Maggie seems utterly ignorant of the role of Dame Olive Branch in the region's history, laughing derisively at the mere existence of hippymancers. Even the idea of casters being overlords seems alien to the later crew, while in Banhammer's time they were the most powerful overlords in Erf. Judy Gale was even suspected of being a caster at one point. In the later story promoting a non-royal to be heir was considered extremely unusual, but Wanda was popped into just such a side.


You claim the most powerful overlords of their time, but that's pretty far from the true.

Tecnically both Wanda and Olive did become powerful overlords-for around 5 minutes before being captured. Wanda's side was wiped out. Olive's side doesn't seem like it will last much longer now that she's in charge.

So if anything, for all Erf knows a mancer becoming the ruler of your side is indeed a portent of iminent doom.

Olive may've become the power beyond the throne for hundreds of turns-but precisely because of that, few would know of her real importance. The 12th level hippymancer only showed her face in important events, and then probably poisoned the other guys before unleashing her chrismats trees of death, killing anyone from other side that had laid their eyes upon her. So it makes quite sense that nobody remembers her, or they simply (in the case of Jillian and Wanda) don't feel like talking about the drug dealer bitch.
raphfrk wrote:
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
Marie shouted "It's all zeroes!" I'm wondering why a Predictamancer would be talking about numbers rather than booleans.

Zero in this context could be damage inflicted or just the probability of hitting.


I think you're on to something with the damage inflicted statement. We've seen items capable of defusing or deflecting spells, so Olive may have one. Marie may have been able to see the outcome, even if she didn't know the cause.

I also have to wonder if Marie has ever shot anyone before. It is relatively common for fresh troops fire very wildly when asked to shoot and kill a living person. Most humans have inhibitions when it comes to killing someone, and these can affect aim. A part of Marie might be thinking, "If I miss, I have obeyed the order to fire, but haven't killed anyone." Marie could be seeing herself jerk at the last microsecond. Letting Jillian do the croaking instead lets her keep the blood off her hands.

Personally, I like those explanations better than the alternative of a deus ex machina.

Also, "With one chop, we’re gonna take over the biggest side in the world", Jillian is far too optimistic about what is going to happen after Olive croaks. Her forces are limited to her father, Faq's casters, and a handful of gwiffons. She simply does not have the resources available to grab those cities while they are still unaligned, or to keep her new neighbors from trying to take over.

For Faq to actually take over those cities, they would need Olive alive and turned.

On a related note, the questions that the court should be asking itself during Olive's trial aren't "What has this woman done?", "What does Fate want?", or "Is she evil?". They live in a world that requires more pragmatic questions be asked. The questions to ask are "Is this woman of more use to us croaked or alive?", "How dangerous is she?", "Did she tell anyone outside of Haffaton about the location of Faq, Otoh, and Kibo?", and "What is our side's grand strategy from now on?".

Frosted wrote:
Everyone seems to be of the opinion that Olive being permitted to talk is going to be the undoing of FAQ but I feel exactly the other way: Jillian speaking is going to completely ruin Olive.
I'm going to place my bets on Wanda as opposed to Jillian. Wanda has far more first hand experience with Olive than Jillian does.
Swodaems wrote:

Frosted wrote:
Everyone seems to be of the opinion that Olive being permitted to talk is going to be the undoing of FAQ but I feel exactly the other way: Jillian speaking is going to completely ruin Olive.
I'm going to place my bets on Wanda as opposed to Jillian. Wanda has far more first hand experience with Olive than Jillian does.


Yeah, I'm dumb and typed the wrong name.
Swodaems wrote:


I think you're on to something with the damage inflicted statement. We've seen items capable of defusing or deflecting spells, so Olive may have one. Marie may have been able to see the outcome, even if she didn't know the cause.

I also have to wonder if Marie has ever shot anyone before. It is relatively common for fresh troops fire very wildly when asked to shoot and kill a living person. Most humans have inhibitions when it comes to killing someone, and these can affect aim. A part of Marie might be thinking, "If I miss, I have obeyed the order to fire, but haven't killed anyone." Marie could be seeing herself jerk at the last microsecond. Letting Jillian do the croaking instead lets her keep the blood off her hands.

Personally, I like those explanations better than the alternative of a deus ex machina.

Preditamancers deal with future certainties. A 1 means the event will happen and can be Predicted as such. A zero means it will not happen. With Marie determining the Fate of each shot, they were all coming up as zeroes, so none of them were Fated to hit. She was looking for Fate to pull Numbers so that there would be a 100% chance of the shot hitting. Instead, it was pulling numbers for a 0% chance of hitting. No matter what kind of attack roll Wanda would have made, or how many multipliers were stack up on it, it was going to be a 0.

Mathemancy works on a similar principle, but it works with the Numbers in between 0 and 100; Predictamancy works on just 0 and 100. Marie knew with 100% certainty that Parson would enter that portal, just not how or when. The mathemancy bracer was running scenarios to determine the odds of a particular tactic getting Parson to the portal, the odds of survival, the odds of getting Wanda back through the portal, how the odds were adjusted by stacking with this combination of caster, how many different ways the thinkamancers would block a particular plan, etc. Mathemancy Numbers are much more granular and precise than Predictamancy. A mathemancer would have given the odds that the shot would hit; Marie was predicting whether the shot definitely would hit (100) or definitely would not(0) hit.

Also, it wouldn't be Marie doing the croaking. Wanda would be the one firing the spell, and she has more than enough experience dealing with croaking, as it is a necessity for her discipline. Marie was serving more as a spotter; she would be no more responsible for the croaking of Olive than she would for the croaking of Banhammer, whose demise she also Predicted.
Swodaems wrote:
raphfrk wrote:
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
Marie shouted "It's all zeroes!" I'm wondering why a Predictamancer would be talking about numbers rather than booleans.

Zero in this context could be damage inflicted or just the probability of hitting.


I think you're on to something with the damage inflicted statement. We've seen items capable of defusing or deflecting spells, so Olive may have one. Marie may have been able to see the outcome, even if she didn't know the cause.

I also have to wonder if Marie has ever shot anyone before. It is relatively common for fresh troops fire very wildly when asked to shoot and kill a living person. Most humans have inhibitions when it comes to killing someone, and these can affect aim. A part of Marie might be thinking, "If I miss, I have obeyed the order to fire, but haven't killed anyone." Marie could be seeing herself jerk at the last microsecond. Letting Jillian do the croaking instead lets her keep the blood off her hands.

Personally, I like those explanations better than the alternative of a deus ex machina.

Also, "With one chop, we’re gonna take over the biggest side in the world", Jillian is far too optimistic about what is going to happen after Olive croaks. Her forces are limited to her father, Faq's casters, and a handful of gwiffons. She simply does not have the resources available to grab those cities while they are still unaligned, or to keep her new neighbors from trying to take over.

For Faq to actually take over those cities, they would need Olive alive and turned.


Its true that it would be more accuate for her to say "end the largest side in erfworld with one chop", however taking over many of those cities would not be that difficult. Those cities have only pathetic defenses left; Jillian manged to take one city with just herself and a dwagon; this time she will have a small team of gwiffens and a whole bunch of casters...

There might also be some question as to how quickly the other sides will move... might take some of them a turn or two to notice that the cities of their most powerful neighbor have gone neutral. Plus while most of haffaton's cities are poorly guarded, I would assume the one's near the border would have decent defenses; Afterall haffaton has to keep the other sides at bay and that means putting up a tough front so they don't realize how weak they really are. Haffaton IS a powerful side, however the diminishing returns on having so many cities would lead them to putting nearly all of their power on their borders. Those better defended border cities may slow down the other sides... Not only will it be harder to take those cities, but they will falsely assume all of haffaton's cities are similar and thus spend a good deal of time building up their forces to take the cities.

All in all, Faq will certainly not be taking over all of haffaton, but they could potentially take a good number of those cities before the other sides arrive.

Though we do know that's NOT what happens... Banhammer will make the call for them to all just return to Faq and go back to their bubble. Though they may still take many of the cities along the way just so they can raze them to bolster their treasurey.


I'll be interested in seeing where gobwinknob comes from... Based on what we know, it seems like Gobwinkob doesn't exist yet which could easily mean that they are a spinnoff of a another royal side.
oslecamo2_temp wrote:
Vreejack wrote:

It seems intentional on Balder's part. Maggie seems utterly ignorant of the role of Dame Olive Branch in the region's history, laughing derisively at the mere existence of hippymancers. Even the idea of casters being overlords seems alien to the later crew, while in Banhammer's time they were the most powerful overlords in Erf. Judy Gale was even suspected of being a caster at one point. In the later story promoting a non-royal to be heir was considered extremely unusual, but Wanda was popped into just such a side.


You claim the most powerful overlords of their time, but that's pretty far from the true.

Tecnically both Wanda and Olive did become powerful overlords-for around 5 minutes before being captured. Wanda's side was wiped out. Olive's side doesn't seem like it will last much longer now that she's in charge.

So if anything, for all Erf knows a mancer becoming the ruler of your side is indeed a portent of iminent doom.

Olive may've become the power beyond the throne for hundreds of turns-but precisely because of that, few would know of her real importance. The 12th level hippymancer only showed her face in important events, and then probably poisoned the other guys before unleashing her chrismats trees of death, killing anyone from other side that had laid their eyes upon her. So it makes quite sense that nobody remembers her, or they simply (in the case of Jillian and Wanda) don't feel like talking about the drug dealer bitch.


You are forgetting Charlie, who also ruled the most powerful city on Erf (until Judy defeated him) and is a suspected carnymancer (largely by analogy to the Wizard of Oz and because of his relationship with the carnies shown in Portal Park). But my point was that it was not thought terribly unusual at the time for casters to be overlords. That argument still seems intact. Olive spent a long time as heir to Haffaton and no one even remarked on the obvious fact that she was a caster.

I find the claim that no one knew about Olive branch because she kept herself hidden to be laughable. You can be pretty sure that the overlord of Transylvito knew a great deal about the existence of Olive Branch, as did all her neighbors who valued their own very tentative existences. They probably traded every scrap of rumor they came across in order to find a weakness they might be able to exploit.

All sides fail. No exceptions. So your argument that the largest sides Erf had ever seen at that date were irrelevant because they fell seems invalid. Unless you want to argue that they were irrelevant because no one remembers them. But I think that is more the fault of the current crop of ignorami who run Erf.
After reading multiple posts on the topic, I can't help but provide my opinion on how I think Luckamancy, Predictamancy and Mathamancy work and how they interact with Fate.
Assuming Erfworld is a turn based, dice based strategy game with elements of micromanagement (all these assumptions are well established now) ... Erfworld should be a game that can be modelled by software.

Also, one thing that seems clear to me is that unit do not enact their decisions well or poorly and THEN roll; units roll for their decisions THEN a narrative that explains these rolls plays itself out. In other words, Jack (and/or the purple dwagon) rolled poorly therefore blundered through the charge that caused his death. This is a typical trope for playing out D&D combat: the narrative of actions is dictated after the fact by the results of dice roll (attack, damage, saves, extra effects). A conclusion of this is that the concern about free will is not particularly relevant to the denouement of actions, combat and other interactions or in explaining how predictamancy, mathamancy and luckamancy work.

So, Mathamancy is the easiest to explain: given a particular set of observable facts (e.g. units, casters, leaders, spells in effect and spells available), run the "game" software simulation a large number of time and observe the incidence of a specific outcome or observable of interest (e.g. win an engagement, a specific unit to croak), the complexity of the situation and observables and the precision of the output depend on caster level and juice spent. In Risk, computing the result of an engagement that involves a large number of soldiers on both sides of a border is beyond the math abilities of most players, but a computer simulation could easily break down the odds of win & loss by number of engagements in the fights. A player with access to that info would have an edge in making combat and soldier movement decisions.

Luckamancy is not terribly difficult either: replace rolls that are unfavorable with favorable ones and be prepared for the opposite to happen forcibly later in the game. In a critical engameent, you can "cheat" your way to victory, but you are guaranteed some serious back luck later, hopefully in a less important engagement. Of course, against a grossly superior foe, the best that can be accomplished is above average retributions or chances of dodging and/or fleeing until the caster runs out of juice.

Predictamancy is a bit trickier: imagine that during a game of chess, you are allowed to reverse your opponent's last move and then your own. How many such moves you can "backtrack" at once is limited by your caster level and how often during the game by your juice. Against a grossly superior opponent, this might not be very efficient (all outcomes come out 0) but against an opponent of about your own strenght whom is not allowed the same trick, this is a great advantage. In terms of "narrative" perspective, the caster and surrounding units only see the "last play", the predictamancer is informed of the future of specific decision and can decide to lean into or away from those pre-determined outcomes.

Then there is Fate!
Fate means that there is an underlying narrative playing itself out, USING the game mechanics as the language of expression. In other words, Erfworld cheats and finds "convenient" ways to mask its hand, very probably through retconjuration (e.g. Banhammer showing up with superior forces JUST about as Wanda is about to croak Jillian ... excellent timing!). This is why predictamancers can detect Fated events and people: all outcomes point to very specific things, regardless of all other variables, this is not a subtle thing if you run simulations against complex multivariable systems. The Titans have a somewhat heavy (but invisible) hands since they are correlling the story towards specific outcomes. Whether Titans are working towards ONE common narrative or they are working against multiple possibly conflicting narratives remains to be seen.

... versus Free Will?
Retconjuration can explain why Fate always trumps free will: if units with free will act towards the fated outcome, lean back and enjoy. If units with free will act against Fate, then retconjuration is used to force some key victories or failures or "random" events or even BACKTRACK some past events and let the game replay itself under different conditions ... the beautiful thing about retconjuration is that it can be used a bit or a lot or grossly massively and yet it cannot be observed by those it affects. Titans can try and retry a bazillion different permutations of cheats and/or backtracks until they get their desired outcome and the units affected, regradless of free will, can only observe the "last play".
Vreejack wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:


You claim the most powerful overlords of their time, but that's pretty far from the true.

Tecnically both Wanda and Olive did become powerful overlords-for around 5 minutes before being captured. Wanda's side was wiped out. Olive's side doesn't seem like it will last much longer now that she's in charge.

So if anything, for all Erf knows a mancer becoming the ruler of your side is indeed a portent of iminent doom.

Olive may've become the power beyond the throne for hundreds of turns-but precisely because of that, few would know of her real importance. The 12th level hippymancer only showed her face in important events, and then probably poisoned the other guys before unleashing her chrismats trees of death, killing anyone from other side that had laid their eyes upon her. So it makes quite sense that nobody remembers her, or they simply (in the case of Jillian and Wanda) don't feel like talking about the drug dealer bitch.


You are forgetting Charlie, who also ruled the most powerful city on Erf (until Judy defeated him) and is a suspected carnymancer (largely by analogy to the Wizard of Oz and because of his relationship with the carnies shown in Portal Park). But my point was that it was not thought terribly unusual at the time for casters to be overlords. That argument still seems intact. Olive spent a long time as heir to Haffaton and no one even remarked on the obvious fact that she was a caster.

I find the claim that no one knew about Olive branch because she kept herself hidden to be laughable. You can be pretty sure that the overlord of Transylvito knew a great deal about the existence of Olive Branch, as did all her neighbors who valued their own very tentative existences. They probably traded every scrap of rumor they came across in order to find a weakness they might be able to exploit.

All sides fail. No exceptions. So your argument that the largest sides Erf had ever seen at that date were irrelevant because they fell seems invalid. Unless you want to argue that they were irrelevant because no one remembers them. But I think that is more the fault of the current crop of ignorami who run Erf.


I never said nobody knew about Olive Branch. But how would they know she was the heir to her side? She has no neon sign over her head, and no compulsion to tell it to anyone. And her "overlord" status will be extremely short lived, just as Wanda was.

Neither Jillian or Wanda knew Oliver was her side's heir until captured by said side. Actually, they had no idea who the hell was that side's overlord until brought in chains to their capital.

Rumors from the other sides, if anything, would be just that, empty rumors, in particular because Olive's side survived on the basis of looking too menancing for anyone to dare to stick their nose in their business. That's how they could get away with holding dozens cities around with just simbolic garrisons.

Plus Charlie only supports my point. He's been around for a very long time and nobody else alive in Erfworld but his innermost archons even know his face, let alone if he's a mancer. Also he's the side that still didn't fail. Charlie is the exception, having been trough titans know how many enemies and wars and still around and kicking as a strong power.

Bottom point being, the only mancer that managed to remain as overlord for more than the blink of an eye would be Charlie-if he's a mancer at all.
oslecamo2_temp wrote:

Bottom point being, the only mancer that managed to remain as overlord for more than the blink of an eye would be Charlie-if he's a mancer at all.

And even if he is a caster, others would attribute his personal power to the 'Dish more than his own casting, especially if he's a carnymancer (as I suspect he is).

Pre-'Dish, he was an Overlord whose Side did get conquered.